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Old 11-09-2002, 12:01 PM   #81
Darth Kaan
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
The thing that confused me is the continued insistance of people to think of the game as Guns vs Sabers, this (imo) is precisely the reason why half these arguments start. The "elite" CTFers don't just run riot with guns, they appreciate the power of the saber, but IT HAS A TIME AND A PLACE, saberists want to be able to be a one man army using just one weapon, gunners wan't to be a one man army using a multitude of weapons adapting depending on situation. Now in terms of balance, who SHOULD win? I think the gunner should win, they have far more ability to adapt. If you hadn't noticed, in the movies, the Jedi win because George tailors every single battle to allow them to do so, if the battle-droids used rocket launchers instead of blasters, the entire jedi order would have been wiped out in AotC.

Here's something which may confuse some of you, this is a game not a movie. If it was a movie the Jedi would HAVE to win, afterall they are some kind of uberbeing.

The second someone makes it so that Guns vs Saber is balanced instead of Gun vs Gun vs Gun vs Saber vs Gun, they basically remove the need for guns entirely from the game, afterall you can defeat anyone with a saber. Gunners use guns AND sabers because it is the optimal combination, what right do people who deliberately restrict their arsenal have to complain when they can't win against those who use everything?

An earlier post suggests that CTF is dying, to me its the only game-type which is actually beginning to flourish, a lot of players who'd moved on to ut2003 and such games have returned to play CTF alongside the newer games.

As for an expansion, I think its essential that an expansion is produced in order for this game to survive, but it should be stand-alone or at least loaded via the mod-menu. We need the influx of new maps, players and ideas that an expansion would provide. Afterall the JK2 editing community has hardly taken off, we have a couple of hundred maps and a few dozen mods which change hardly anything. The only real mod to date is Hydroball which died pretty quickly due to lack of server support.
I agree with most of what you said except three things;

1. In High level CTF, it is a guns/force only game. Period. Sabers are useless against force weilding cappers. It is not a matter of them being an all the time effective weapon, it's the fact they are not effective 99% of the time.

2. Merc's use force powers without having to invest some of their force points to weapons. This gives them more points for force powers they should not have in the first place, one of which increase their weapons rate of fire.

3. Movies or not, giving Merc's force powers in the game afforded them even more advantage than they already had mid and long range. While I am only average at CTF, all I have seen that dominate use guns and force only. I can't and don't blaim them, why use a useless weapon?

The travesty in all of this is the fact that the decision to give cappers force powers, not require they apply points to weapons (guns), while one must to even have a nerfed saber, removed one of the two unique aspects of this game, in CTF mode which in this game should be called , Bounty Hunters: Mercs with the Force.

Just my opinions, everyone is entitled to their own.


Last edited by Darth Kaan; 11-09-2002 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 11-09-2002, 12:03 PM   #82
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Although it means my running off on a canonical tangent, I have to say that I agree with what Detritic says about the eternal sabs vs. guns debate, and I've said similar things in old debates with sabreheads.

To me, the problem seems to be the fact that so many SW fanboys equate carrying a lightsabre with being a Jedi.

And of course, this is just because they think IT SI KEWWLLL!11

A Jedi isn't his sword. His sword isn't powered by the Force. HE is powered by the Force. A Jedi without a sword is only marginally less dangerous than a Jedi with a sword. A Jedi is a Jedi because of his mastery of the ways of the Force.

Anyone can wield a lightsabre, lit:

Qui-Gon Jinn - "Perhaps I killed a Jedi and stole it (his lightsabre) from him."

A lightsabre is not a magical Jedi-Only weapon, nor is it greater than a gun in killing power, as one sabre-hit can kill someone, and one blaster hit can kill someone.

So unless you're playing on a JvMerc server, ALL players on all servers are JEDI. Whether they carry a sword, a gun, or a corkscrew!


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Old 11-09-2002, 03:19 PM   #83
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Okay, long post coming... shield your eyes Laz.

Seems this topic is moving from expansion-pack discussion to general criticism of what promod tries to do. I can understand how people write the mod off as a saberist's wet dream, something unappealing to the majority of players. I might agree if I hadn't tried the mod myself, but I think some of you underestimate the scope of ArtifeX's thought on the subject. His mod isn't trying to be one big gun nerf, or a bunch of stupid little changes that no-one but a hardcore saberist would notice.

There are almost limitless un-tapped gameplay options and opportunities in JO that most people take for granted, things Raven implemented but didn't polish enough to be noticed. In theory, if all of these systems functioned at top efficiency, not only would all game types be more fun, but you'd see a steady reunification of all the fragmented playing types in the community.

How successful ArtifeX will be is still unknown, but that's one of the things he's trying to do. He hopes the mod will be accepted by his own caste of hardcore, competative players, and that eventually the other community types will catch on as the mod evolves and gets new features.

Now, some have argued that ProMod couldn't appeal to the masses because it doesn't alter the game on a grand enough scale, like CS did with HL. To this I answer: give it time. ArtifeX is already building his own unique jetpack system, a new neutral force power, and soon completely new saber styles (double-bladed/twin/one-handed). He's compiling all the best multiplayer maps and skins made by the community to ensure their compatability. And if his mod takes off even a little bit, these changes might only be the beginning. I don't really mean to compare the two, but CS wasn't made in a day.

But is it too late? Is the JO community too weak, fragmented, and eclipsed by the more popular and epic FPS games of today? Can it be re-vitalized by some upstart saberist-turned-modder with delusions of grandeur? I don't know. But I doubt the Half-Life multiplayer community was in the best of conditions either, before CS and TFC came along. Granted, JO wasn't as initially popular as Half-Life, but who can be sure? I can't.

And now for the "realism" debate (heh heh). Some people think promod's approach to saber-vs-guns is unrealistic, that a Jedi Master with a rocket launcher is better than a Jedi Master with a glowstick. Whelp, there's one weakness in promod -- gunners who are absolutely set in their ways won't like the lack of force powers. But if they have even a shred of curiousity, the smallest sense of adventure, they may want to try promod's "improved" gun strength at skill level 4. That's right: guns are uber-deadly in ArtifeX's system, and can kill even more tyranically when in the right hands. And I won't even mention the jetpacks.

And if gunners ever feel force withdrawl while they're rocket-sniping n00bs, they can try any number of gun/force hybrids that are possible in the skill set. Class-based, like all the most popular FPS online games today, except even more versatile.

And let's be honest here folks: what makes JO multiplayer stand out from all the brilliant online shooters today? Is it the ho-hum maps Raven made? The somewhat-interesting gun types? The force powers that work like glorified powerups, jetpacks and weak guns? Just about every other shooter has this stuff already, in some form.

But what about that sword with several dozen unique moves and abilities attached to it?

Yeah, I'd say the lightsaber is the biggest innovation. Too bad it's only used 10% of the time in most game types. Doesn't really feel like Star Wars anymore, does it? More like some weak quake mod. So why not just play CS, or better yet Battlefield 1942, where you have all these cool vehicles and battleships and stuff? Why play JO just for the guns?

Get my drift? So... in one shot, ArtifeX is trying to bring the spirit of the movies back to JO multiplayer, plus make the game itself more fun and more supportive of new maps and skins, and in doing so help heal the splits in the community. And maybe, just maybe, help JO multiplayer compete with other online shooters in its own Jedi fashion.

Can Arti pull all this crap off? Probably not, but having played his mod and been impressed by his clarity of vision, I have a small hope.

And if you don't like the changes he makes, still think he's full of himself, then don't worry: it's just a mod. Vanilla JO will be there until the last of us move on to clearly better games.
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Old 11-09-2002, 08:53 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh:
Seems this topic is moving from expansion-pack discussion to general criticism of what promod tries to do.
...

I don't know what thread you've been reading my friend... Nobody mentioned Promod at all in the last four posts before yours.

What I talked about in my previous post, and what, after concentrated reading I deemed that Det was talking about, is the constant partitioning and segregation of portions of the community by a group I term "sabreheads." Those are people who believe that only Jedi should use the sabre, and Jedi should not use guns. They say that those who use guns... are not Jedi.

In my post I was pointing out the canonical and realism flaw in the argument of the sabreheads, and Detritic appeared to be pointing out the technical and game-related flaws in their arguments.

These concepts have nothing to do with Promod IMO... You may be a little too ready to leap to the defence of the thing, when it isn't currently being debated, much less attacked.


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Old 11-09-2002, 09:06 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh
...
Get my drift? So... in one shot, ArtifeX is trying to bring the spirit of the movies back to JO multiplayer, plus make the game itself more fun and more supportive of new maps and skins, and in doing so help heal the splits in the community. And maybe, just maybe, help JO multiplayer compete with other online shooters in its own Jedi fashion.
...
At last. Someone understands why I'm doing this.

I'm speechless.


Artifex *ASC*
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Old 11-09-2002, 11:46 PM   #86
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Quote:
These concepts have nothing to do with Promod IMO... You may be a little too ready to leap to the defence of the thing, when it isn't currently being debated, much less attacked.
I was worried I'd be instantly accused of that. But ArtifeX's motives in this argument are so closely tied to his mod that I thought talking about them couldn't hurt. I admit you never made a direct attack, but it seemed an inevitable clash if you were to continue these endless rebuttles. Besides, you guys DID bring up the "realistic inferiority" of the saber, out of the blue, a statement which flies in the face of promod whether or not it was an "official" attack. So why can't I try to shed some light on ArtifeX's point of view? Which of us was more outside of the debate?

I like try to address the undercurrents of any misunderstanding during an argument. Debates tend to be rather ineffective otherwise, in my experience. I also have strong opinions on this subject. Accuse me of being overly defensive if it makes you happy. I won't deny it, but neither will I wholly aknowledge it.

Whew, I'm in the wrong line of work. I oughta be a politician.

Quote:
I'm speechless.
Being a cowardly lurker most of the time, speechlessness is something I respect greatly.

Anyways, good luck. I mean that. Get Promod back out there pronto, I'm getting bored with vanilla. Less talk more mod.

- Blind Moradin
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Old 11-10-2002, 02:29 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh:
ArtifeX's motives in this argument are so closely tied to his mod that I thought talking about them couldn't hurt.
Certainly you can post what you wish, but not only did you erroneously leap to the defence of Promod when it was not under attack, you labelled myself and Detritic as attackers of Promod. This is unacceptable and misrepresentative of my views, and probably Detritic's as well, though I can't speak for him.

Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh:
I admit you never made a direct attack
By that you imply that I made an indirect attack? Keep your angry-hat and your combative terminology for another day my friend, this is a civil debate, not a flame war. And, I don't think reactionary posts of the type you've been making help to keep it as civil as it currently is. You may have been aware of that before you made your post of course, but regardless I will inform you of the fact.

The merits of Promod have never been the subject of this thread. Also, the debate over the question of whether the sabre should rival the guns in power is an old one, older than Promod itself.

Furthermore game modifcations are mediums in which the mod-maker has the right to pursue whatever line of game balance he or she wishes, and it would be not only pointless but idiotic to debate its merits. It is as Artifex wishes it to be, and that is the end of the story.

Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh:
Besides, you guys DID bring up the "realistic inferiority" of the saber, out of the blue, a statement which flies in the face of promod whether or not it was an "official" attack.
You may not have been here to witness the many flame wars and debates that raged over the balance of power between the sabre and the gun, and whether the Jedi carries only a lightsabre or not, and whether Kyle Katarn is a real Jedi, all of which occurred immediately after the release of JO, and you may not be aware that similar debates went on in the days of JK1. Regardless, it's an old debate.

As for the more recent advent of Promod, Promod is what Promod is. It is not an issue for debate, as stated above.

If I can be perfectly honest at this moment, I'd like to ask you to calm down. Your opinions may well be strong and you have a right to them, but you don't have to express them in terms so strong as to cause offence, which you have done so far.

Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh:
Accuse me of being overly defensive if it makes you happy. I won't deny it, but neither will I wholly aknowledge it. Whew, I'm in the wrong line of work. I oughta be a politician.
Mm-hmm. If you can find anything positive in the type of peculiarly transparent and yet annoyingly obtuse behaviour practiced by politicians, then your sigline nickname may be more apt than you realise, and I'd recommend that you re-evaluate your view of the people in question.


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Old 11-10-2002, 03:54 PM   #88
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Ouch, that was harsh. Attacking my nicknames now?

Anyways, I don't feel like playing this game of endless quotes and rebuttles, as you'd surely drown me and everyone else eventually.

I hate to say it Spider, but people don't care that much about what you have to say, not enough to keep reading chapter after chapter of your private views on game patches. Not even the overly-threatened crazies like me really care that much.

But there are worse things you could do, and I'm honestly not angry. In fact, at the beginning of this thread I agreed totally with your views. And if we ever met I'd guess you'd be a pleasant, enlightened person. Unfortunately, for some reason you've locked someone I know (who is rather busy at the moment) into a tireless, grinding, vaporous debate with no end in sight and no reconciliation that I can perceive, and I'll risk the assumption that few people besides you are enjoying themselves.

In any case, I don't feel like getting trapped in the same game, so my presence on this thread ends here. Have fun picking apart and twisting my words at your pleasure, but please satisfy your ego with having the last word and mend this stupid argument soon.

And no hard feelings. We all got our eccentricities, if I spelled that right.

- Blind Moradin

Last edited by Moradivh; 11-10-2002 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:34 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh
Ouch, that was harsh. Attacking my nicknames now?
The only person who has attacked anything in this post is you, my son. It would have been remiss of me not to point out the curious coincidence of you calling yourself "blind" in your sig, and actually exhibiting a certain short-sightedness at the same time.

Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh
Anyways, I don't feel like playing this game of endless quotes and rebuttles, as you'd surely drown me and everyone else eventually.
I empathise, some people can't function in a drawn out debate without either losing sight of their original purpose or becoming childish and unpleasant through frustration.

Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh
I'm honestly not angry.
This is a good thing. anyone who becomes emotionally involved in an online debate is behaving foolishly, to say the least.

Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh
Unfortunately, for some reason you've locked someone I know (who is rather busy at the moment) into a tireless, grinding, vaporous debate
Short of tying them to a chair, there is no way to "lock" someone in a debate, my friend. Either one debates, or one does not. People may feel some sort of imperative to continue a debate due to emotional involvement, but as stated above, emotional involvement in online debate is misguided.

And anyway, I'm not going to go into exactly who's kept this debate going for as long as it has. If someone poses a question to me, of course I'll answer it, and if someone misrepresents my arguments or statements- as you have done- I will put the record straight. Up to now many people, including yourself, have seemed eager to put their oar into the water, so I don't think I can quite carry the can for "forcing everyone to debate."

Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh
I'll risk the assumption that few people besides you are enjoying themselves.
Up until your involvement, I found this thread to be without fail mature and informative. I think there's a lot of constructive things to be gained from a discussion like this, so I'm afraid you have completely the wrong attitude to appreciate debates of this kind. This thread has given me an insight into the views of others that I simply couldn't have gained otherwise. And I've made my views clear enough so that others hopefully have the same understanding of them, and the views they represent.

Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh
people don't care that much about what you have to say, not enough to keep reading chapter after chapter of your private views on game patches.
Ah, you can speak for "people" at large can you. That's quite a gift.

Regardless, I have no doubt you're correct for most people... but what's important is that we all express our views so that those of us with the maturity to listen and to take those views into account, can appreciate them, and learn from them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh
In any case, I don't feel like getting trapped in the same game, so my presence on this thread ends here. Have fun picking apart and twisting my words at your pleasure, but please satisfy your ego with having the last word and mend this stupid argument soon.
My my, what a mature "parting shot" to use your own combative terminology. Most distasteful.


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Old 11-11-2002, 11:00 AM   #90
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**bows**

Touche.
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Old 11-11-2002, 11:48 AM   #91
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Yet another post, and this time you use a fencing term? Must everything be a battle with people like you?



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Old 11-11-2002, 12:25 PM   #92
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and all this relates HOW to the expansion pack? and releasing the necessary tools to the modders for their work not to get nerfed?
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Old 11-11-2002, 07:33 PM   #93
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Greetings from the hoi polloi

First of all I should lay out that I'm one of those poor, unskilled players whom you have made it clear, is imminently not qualified to have an opinion on serious and critical issues of gameplay.

I love JK2. I think it's the best 3-d adventure game I've enjoyed since DS9: The Fallen. However, I have a hard enough time beating the game on the second difficulty level without quick-save. Still, developing cat-like reflexes is not an option I have and spending five or six hours a week honing my skills so I could precisely execute four succesive saber swipes to end in a perfect fatality or whatever.

I tried MP for a bit and needless to say I died, early and often. I don't see the allure behind repeatedly getting blown up in stupid nonsense games like CTF or FFA. Honestly, what's the big deal about getting a beatdown from (or delivering one to) an annoying 12 year old or smug 32 year old in the current MP? Someone pointed out to me that after the patches, the weapons, lightsabers, and force powers have been changed to balance out the blah blah blah... So what? That would mean I last 30 seconds while chasing a guy with a Ysalamander or whatever?

Unless there's a subscription fee or an aspect of their business model that I'm not familiar with, LA charges ~ $50 USD of your purchase of JK2 of which they likely see a substantial profit. There is no additional software purchase for MP; the patches are free, the servers are free. Why would they care what you liked or didn't like about it's MP gameplay? Why would they even care if you're not going to play MP anymore? This isn't like UT2000, a game specifically designed for MP competition. It's a stand-alone first player adventure in the Star Wars universe.

Does anyone honestly think that LA will lose a significant number of first-time customers or even second-time expansion pack buyers based on some self-proclaimed elitist expert's derision of the MP experience? The number of "master saberists" or whatever surely can't make more than a small percentage of the total number of people who purchase this game. Heck, until I see some stats, I'll wager that the very percentage of JK2 owners who've even played MP (like SUV owners who take them off-road) is a minority of itself.

And even if it's a sizeable minority, for every disgruntled Jedi Master there's any number of young kids born well after the original trilogy who will buy the game and expansion pack regardless of your opinion or mine. If they redid MP so that everyone ran on the celing with force speed and double-edged stun batons I still wouldn't play it because it's hard to get excited behind ctf, which frankly wasn't even all that much fun in elementary school to begin with.

The expansion pack will come out in a year or so with four or five average to good new levels and it will sell quite nicely. Perhaps not as well as JK2 itself, but respectably nonetheless. Whatever changes they make to MP won't amount to squat since it will still be a pointless competition of who's got the fastest fingers.

If LA & Raven truly wanted to get the most out of MP they would set up a giant server system and run movie-inspired objective-based scenarios with huge teams such as putting down a rebel insurrection, stopping a commando alliance infiltration into an imperial base or something along those lines. There would be specific player classes, abilities, and weapons, limitations on the number of jedis each side could have, strategy-based objectives etc... Heck, an AOTC conversion sounds pretty darn good on paper.

LA could then charge on a subscription basis or an access pass per scenario format like pay-per-view. "Friday at 9:30 EST join hundreds of players from both sides to reenact the attack on Hoth!" Sure, I'd cough up money to be a part of that, as long as there weren't stormtroopers force gripping rebel commanders or something equally inane.

Yet this concept (and escapist level of authenticity) is what will become a large draw for SW: Galaxies. Unless combat turns out to be terrible in Galaxies and action-seeking subscribers flee in droves, LA has no reason to care that John Doe can no longer impale the flag carrier backwards and upside down as a result of the latest JK2 patch.

The only argument that I would accept is if each person who is most adept and proficient at the game could through their opinions, truly persuade a number of people to buy or not buy copies of JK2. Ironically enough, I as one of the mediocre players with some disposable income, can afford to do one better. I bought several copies of JK2 to give out to people for their birthdays or whatnot. I will probably stuff some stockings for my console friends come the holiday season as well.

Their revenue stream from JK2 is a result of one-time (or in some cases like mine, multiple-time) purchases of the game. If anyone actually come up with a good enough idea with enough draw, quality, and interest to become a popular mod with substantial following it like CS for HL, will get yanked by LA and their cadre of lawyers, sued for damages, and worse yet, have their ideas ripped off for use in an expansion pack or sequel. LA doesn't have to lift a finger to help out mod-makers and they don't have to care. Modders everywhere should be happy they're fending off whiny people who want watered down MP instead of cease and desist court orders.


"I'm gonna join the Empire, get bossed around, attack sand crawlers filled with Jawas, have weird hooded old men wave their hands whilst saying 'These aren't the droids you are looking for' and eventualy have my oxygen supply cut off by someone in a plastic hat."
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Old 11-11-2002, 09:00 PM   #94
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Wow, that's the best speech I've ever read here. Kudos. Wish I could verify your last paragraph, but I don't know the intrigue behind famous mods like Counter-Strike and couldn't give an opinion.

Okay, I'm gone for real this time, no fooling, just wanted to applaud opusvi's post. I guess this thread isn't so hopeless after all.

Last edited by Moradivh; 11-11-2002 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 11-11-2002, 09:35 PM   #95
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If Lucas Arts is intending to release an expansion then it would be a Huge mistake for them not to take a serious look at ProMods implementation of saber combat - and expand on that.

I suspect Raven only gets paid so many man/hours to work on JK2 and that is most likely why there is lukewarm interest for further enhancements and lackluster patching. The folks that coded the game probably do not share in its profits. Fortunately for both Raven and LA someone came along and fixed the game - FOR FREE - at least ProMod demonstrates to them how it should be done.

I've been around ...played all pc melee/combat games since Die by the Sword, only two games stand out - Raven's Heretic 2 and JK2/ProMod. These two play with almost identical tempo and control. If Raven does get coding again on JK2 it would be wise of them to talk to the small dedicated H2 community and the JK2 community as well. They would most likely find both communities saying the same things.

It would be nice to see everyone playing a ProMod/H2 like combat system in the next expansion.
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Old 11-11-2002, 09:52 PM   #96
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Opusvi is in many ways right. We, the multiplayer community of jk2, are an extremely small percentage of the total number of people who bought it (and becoming smaller by every indication). Furthermore, jk2 is not really a game that sells a lot based on its multiplayer component...most people play the single player campaign and are quite happy with it. Lots of new sales almost certainly are not going to be generated because its multi component gets an overhaul and becomes 'fun' to us grognards again.


Despite these facts, raven made 2 patches the gameplay of the multiplayer component already. Not only that, it seemed to make these changes based on the gripes and bitching expoused on this very board, by many of these very people. It overreacted, in the eyes of many, but still...things changed because of discussions here.


Now, i know of only one game that actually started getting more sales because of the mods associated with it - half life. Many other games have some very nice mods, but in general this doesn't catch the eye of the vast gaming public. I fully expect this to be the case here, even though promod makes great strides towards creating a very comprehensive and fun multiplayer combat system.


However - I don't KNOW that this will be the case. It may be that promod catches hold of many peoples imagination, starts spreading like wildfire and then eclipses counterstrike in the number of servers running it and the number of people playing it. Likely? No, but for a company to willingly throw away that sort of extra revenue possibility because it didn't want to make the MINIMAL outlay of resources, such as the things artifex mentioned - animation source code, multiplayer source code, stuff like that - is just acting...well, stupid is too weak a word for it.


Laz
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Old 11-12-2002, 09:04 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lazarous:
for a company to willingly throw away that sort of extra revenue possibility because it didn't want to make the MINIMAL outlay of resources, such as the things artifex mentioned - animation source code, multiplayer source code, stuff like that - is just acting...well, stupid is too weak a word for it.
Well absolutely Laz, but you must remember that big, ponderous corporations like LEC are run not by imaginative executives... but by accountants. And accountants are misers, not to put too fine a point on it. "Dog in the manger" is the order of the day, etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by opusvi:
Whatever changes they make to MP won't amount to squat since it will still be a pointless competition of who's got the fastest fingers.
Opusvi, good post, I agree with most of it as you may have guessed... But from one decrepit oldie to another I have to say... the buzz one gets from winning these games through skill is unparalleled. Well, let's put it this way, it's the best buzz you can get while fully dressed. Also, I recall that once, one of the best clans in the UK (I think it was Quake 3...) [4K], declared that they only practiced for a few hours at weekends, so it's not about how much you train at the game, it's about how much you concentrate while training. And there's always the hope in the back of the gamer's mind that a game they like will become a pro-gaming standard, so that they can have a shot at making money from playing it. Those are some of the benefits.


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Old 11-12-2002, 09:33 AM   #98
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Re: Greetings from the hoi polloi

Quote:
Originally posted by opusvi
First of all I should lay out that I'm one of those poor, unskilled players whom you have made it clear, is imminently not qualified to have an opinion on serious and critical issues of gameplay.
...
I'm not arguing that you need to be possessed of great manual dexterity to have what I consider a valid opinion on jk2's game balance. I'm saying that you need to have a thorough understanding of the game. The best method for finding someone who has a good understanding of a game is to find someone who has practiced enough to become successful in a proven tournament structure.

i.e.: If I wanted to talk to someone about Quake 1 game balance, I'd go talk to Thresh.

Keep in mind that game sales can be affected by the quality of mods available. I assure you that Counterstrike sold many, many copies of Halflife, just as Urban Terror probably did for Unreal Tournament. Enough so that they released CS and Urban Terror as their own retail products to capitalize on it.

My main argument is that, if an expansion is released, then the full toolset needs to be released so that mods aren't cut off at the knees. This will mean real money to LA in the long run if quality mods are produced.


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Old 11-12-2002, 11:25 AM   #99
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Thumbs down

pffff, what a load of crap that was...

justifying poorly done SW by thaking the dinosaur industry's point of view.

wake up

We're supposed to be the consumers and DEMAND.

Mod makers are building the future of gaming.

And it looks like in this thread they are being told: "No, I like paying 50 bucks for buggy broken software and I dont care If you guys innovate, create and make something horrible into something fun for some people. I'll just say f*ck you and your work, I want to spend more on something thats even more broken, because I can. I'll also opt for protecting the suits that sold me this mod of a two year old game for money rather than back up people that are making it for free with not even the tools to do it properly. I'll also challenge your reasons for modding in the first place even if that has no merit whatsoever."

You guys have managed to sum up the horrible behavior of todays gaming industry and make it sound OK. Sorry but the defense of this point of view, coming from the consumers and not the companies, is baffling for me to listen to.

And what a horrible thing to say was those last few sentences Spider Al. You have obviously strayed far from the topic and have sucessfully replaced what gaming is all about with moneymaking.
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Old 11-12-2002, 12:30 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by ksk h2o:
And what a horrible thing to say was those last few sentences Spider Al. You have obviously strayed far from the topic and have sucessfully replaced what gaming is all about with moneymaking.
Not only are you out of line, you obviously didn't bother to read my post thoroughly enough to understand it.

You, like many people before you, seem to reflexively confuse stating the obvious truth with supporting the unjust status quo.

Because people SEE that LEC doesn't care about its customers, doesn't mean they SUPPORT LEC. Just because people can see that most players aren't interested in the deeper aspects of gaming, doesn't mean they themselves shun those aspects.

And the question of whether and how much LEC cares about its customers is very much part of the topic being discussed.

As for the pro-gaming moneymaking statement, it's absolutely true and just... and rightly so. What could be better than making money out of something you already enjoy? Making money from something doesn't take the fun out of the game. In fact, it often adds an adrenal spice that keeps players interested when they might otherwise have moved on.

So just save your angry-hat for another day my son. I'm sure you're all tense over LEC's behaviour, but just take it out on them, mmkay? Don't look for enemies where there are none, just because you can't fight the real ones. Nobody here loves LEC.

Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX:
Keep in mind that game sales can be affected by the quality of mods available. I assure you that Counterstrike sold many, many copies of Halflife
As I've said above in this thread, this did nothing for Half-Life itself. There was no explosion in HL vanilla player-numbers due to CStrike's success. CS deserved to succeed because it was great, but it wasn't the saviour of HL. It was only the saviour of CS.

Quote:
Originally posted by ArtifeX:
My main argument is that, if an expansion is released, then the full toolset needs to be released so that mods aren't cut off at the knees. This will mean real money to LA in the long run if quality mods are produced.
Indeed, it would be great if the toolset was released, it would help mods and mod-makers. However an expansion could have a positive effect even if the toolset was not released.


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Old 11-12-2002, 06:28 PM   #101
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Uh Vader?

I'm not your son.

You and I obviously do not share the same concepts on gaming and moneymaking. I try to respect other peoples philosophies, but I wouldn't stereotype and apply a particular philosophy to all intense gamers, which was what that last post did.

Stating the obvious truth, in this thread, has turned into a means of discouragement. Rather than saying "this is how it is, and this is what wee need to challenge" we are being told; "this is how it is, so theres no point in fighting it... your cause is hopeless... uh... my... son"

Read my post whichever way you want it; either as a tongue-in-cheek smirking pointer or as a yelling two year old's rants, but dont go telling me I am "out of line" becaue you'd be taking yourself way too seriously.
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Old 11-13-2002, 08:55 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL

...
As I've said above in this thread, this did nothing for Half-Life itself. There was no explosion in HL vanilla player-numbers due to CStrike's success. CS deserved to succeed because it was great, but it wasn't the saviour of HL. It was only the saviour of CS.

I was attempting to link sales of a game to the availability of good mods for same. I wasn't talking about CS increasing the number of players for HL DM. LA's accountants wouldn't give two sh*ts whether the sale came from someone wanting to play the official version or a mod--it's still a sale.
Quote:

Indeed, it would be great if the toolset was released, it would help mods and mod-makers. However an expansion could have a positive effect even if the toolset was not released.


A positive effect for you; a negative for anyone playing or creating mods.


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Old 11-13-2002, 10:21 AM   #103
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Arti and Spider are both correct to a degree

Atri is correct when he state that mods can help a games money making potential. The more you get out of a game the more likely you are to look forward to future games made by the same company. I for example am frothing at the mouth for some upcoming FPS games, because of the experince I have had with them in the past. I will put any future Raven-LEC joint projects on the bottom of my list in the future, simply because I know that I will get more from other games then I will from anything these two make in the future.

Spider is correct when he says that mods did nothing for half life. However he didn't go into the whole "what will customers do in the future" line of thought. He is also correct in stating that an expansion would have a positive effect on the JKII community as a whole, even if it doesn't for Mod makers. That being said I don't believe any postive effect can last without the release of crucial tools.

I will also point out that Spider is not support LEC money crazed ways he was stating them as a reality that must be considered when addressing certain questions.

Now for heavens sake lets spell out what the conclusions of this thread are so we can end this circular discussion.


1- Expansion pack would be good.

2- Expansion pack + tools for Mod makers would be better

3- LEC is a company that has paid us little attention as of late.

4- FatalStrike is waiting for Unreal 2

5- You will also buy Unreal 2

OK time for coffee.


Battlefield 1942........
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Old 11-13-2002, 01:12 PM   #104
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Well, I wouldn't say that I particularly love LEA right now but I'll revise my opinion when I get my hands on the new, ever so tasty Sam & Max game. While I don't think I'd particularly want to invite any of them over to my house for dinner, I sure wish I could trade my flagging AOLTW shares for stock in anything Lucas-related.

KSK, if you want to make a more cogent defense of mods you ought to post something more relevant than some convoluted, whiny, technopunk, marxist diatribe about "scratch" software. Although I shouldn't be doing your research for you, articles like the following support the viability of mods more effectively:

http://www.redherring.com/mag/issue96/1370019137.html

http://www.business2.com/articles/ma...89%7C2,FF.html


Artifex is right in pointing out that CS shipped many boxes of HL. But Half-Life was an average game who only benefitted from an above average mod, CS to extend its expiration date. Spider is right in pointing out that CS survived on its own merit and only incidentally helped HL. Because again, HL was a essentially a paint-by-numbers game. Thinking man's Quake? Er...No. More like Quake with big nasty bugs in it. That canadian guy who made CS in his spare time didn't even charge for his mod and doesn't to this day. Do you know how he makes his money? By essentially pressuring Valve to pay him for doing work on CS due to the profits he brings in for HL sales.

Mod makers might possibly be the future of gaming, but right now they're nothing but an amusement. All this talk of "keeping the community alive" doesn't change the fact that JK2 expansion packs will sell by the truckload. JK2 sells for SP first and MP as a distant second. SW fans who want a better MP experience will just have to wait until SW:Galaxies.

As a matter of fact, I don't particularly like paying $50 for the average game even if I can afford it, and I'm sorry if that's too steep for your pockets. But that's what it takes for companies to recoup their losses. You may not like the business model but that doesn't change anything about it any more than complaining about snow makes it go away.

I'm not telling anyone to go and "f" themselves. I think that in all truth, Artifex and his contemporaries probably have good reasons, motivation and means to make their projects come to life. But for the most part, and I speak for the majority of game buyers in this regard, I'm not all that interested in what they have to sell/rent/give away for free. On his own description of ProMOD, Artifex clearly states that his "is a system that rewards great player skill, and conversely punishes those of lesser abilities."

Well, being one of those MAJORITY of players with decidely "lesser abilities", who doesn't like MP to begin with, why is it that I'm supposed to be popping cartwheels about his idea exactly? Not that I don't respect Artifex's obvious skill and technical know-how and such, but this is just not something I'm ever going to want. Will most n00bs want to download a mod that will allow old-timers like him and Spyder to more easily cream them in MP? Do you think they'd ever want to pay for that?


(http://www.3dactionplanet.com/featur...llchick/small/)


Actually, I don't think that challenging someone's reasons for modding is wholly without merit. In fact, I think it's essential to realize that it's not. I mean, you're basically taking someone else's intellectual property and fudging with it (for better or worse) and then distributing it as your own work. How is that different from re-writing the end to a book because you like it better and then give out copies to anyone who wanted it? Or from covering a song from an artist because you didn't like the way they sang and then giving it away for free? It's copyright violation, trademark infringement, and arguably steps all over reverse-engineering laws and standards. Oh, but this is done under the auspices of the companies who make them. Ah, well... If Raven et al are going to look the other way while you rip off their product then I suppose it's all right...

On principle, do I approve of mods? Short answer is yes with an if and the long answer is no, with a but. From a player perspective, heck yes if you can provide something interesting to me, like the Battle of Hoth or AOTC conversions. However, if it was my company or I was a shareholder, of course not. But if I can inherently profit from them then I'd make an exception. Telling me that nasty, bad capitalist scum make the world a nasty, bad place to live isn't going to change the fact that it's the way things are.

I doubt Artifex or anyone else would truly turn down a big fat advance from LEA and we could only hope that he gets an offer and has the opportunity to prove me wrong. But he's still making an unrequested, unauthorized, voluntary amount of extraordinary work on his own. Success alone should in fact be measured by the fact that he's not being sued. If people like Promod and it does well, then great more power to him.

But that doesn't change the fact that an expansion pack which makes mods harder (or even prohibitive) to put out will doubtlessly sell 100K's of copies. CS ripped off HL which in turn mooched from it to make profits. But HL was a mediocre game at worst and needed that shot in the arm to stay afloat. Lest we forget, this is indeed STAR WARS. Trust me when I say this, with their history, brand name recognition, multi-million dollar marketing and product placement, SW can do just fine without modders. JK2 sells not necessarily on the strength of its games as much as on the strength of STAR WARS.


Point being that little 14 year-old Johnnie Gamer from Riverdale, Missouri will still hop on over to Walmart and buy JK2: Super Mario Jedi or whatever LEA decides to sell us next. Whether it's derivative, too linear, boring, buggy, is completely besides the point. George Lucas could crap in a brightly colored box, shrinkwrap it, slap a $49.99 sticker on it, call it an expansion pack and I can assure you that droves of eager fanboys will rush to stores to get one. You may not like it, but again that's the way it is. It's a fact KSK. The majority of us who are stupid mindless drones of the evil capitalist hegemony (or whatever your commie epithet du jour is), will still buy into their twisted schemes of oligarchic marketplace domination and blah blah blah...

However, if anyone can tell me of a good, i.e. professional quality, mod (preferably SP) that I'd possibly be interested in, I'll definitely look it over and see if it's worthwhile. Heck, if it's something good enough to be in an expansion pack, I promise to PayPal the author for it.


"I'm gonna join the Empire, get bossed around, attack sand crawlers filled with Jawas, have weird hooded old men wave their hands whilst saying 'These aren't the droids you are looking for' and eventualy have my oxygen supply cut off by someone in a plastic hat."
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Old 11-13-2002, 02:23 PM   #105
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Man, another entertaining post from opusvi! Keep 'em coming!

One quick thing though:

It really isn't unlawful to make mods. It's only unlawful to make mods and then sell them for profit without the consent of the company (LA).


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Old 11-13-2002, 08:20 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by ksk h2o:
I try to respect other peoples philosophies,
Ah yes, because posting something like, umm:

Quote:
Originally posted by ksk h2o:
pffff, what a load of crap that was...
Is obviously respectful of the point of view of others, isn't it.

Or not. Frankly, out of line.

Quote:
Originally posted by ksk h2o:
but I wouldn't stereotype and apply a particular philosophy to all intense gamers, which was what that last post did.
Paranoid. The last sentences in my post were explanatory of the reasons one might wish to become "expert" at a game, for the edification of Opusvi who claimed not to see the benefit of becoming expert at the game. I listed some possible benefits, hence the last words "those are some of the benefits." All you need to do is read more carefully... Almost everything you've posted in reaction to a 'perceived stereotyping' has been of no use to either you or anyone else.

Quote:
Originally posted by ksk h2o:
Stating the obvious truth, in this thread, has turned into a means of discouragement. Rather than saying "this is how it is, and this is what wee need to challenge" we are being told; "this is how it is, so theres no point in fighting it...
Nobody has said anything of the sort, quite frankly. And just because people haven't flocked quickly enough to your particular brand of fire n' brimstone "fight LEC on the beaches" banner, doesn't make them conchie pacifist traitors now, does it?

Quote:
Originally posted by ksk h2o:
Read my post whichever way you want it; either as a tongue-in-cheek smirking pointer or as a yelling two year old's rants, but dont go telling me I am "out of line"
Actually, you're still pretty much out of line.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
I was attempting to link sales of a game to the availability of good mods for same. I wasn't talking about CS increasing the number of players for HL DM. LA's accountants wouldn't give two sh*ts whether the sale came from someone wanting to play the official version or a mod--it's still a sale.
Of course this is correct Arti. What I was remarking on was the fact that regardless of whether mods succeed or fail, they are rarely the "saviours" of the games whose engines they use. If a 'CS for JO' was created, it wouldn't save JO, just as CS didn't save HL. Thus, what is good for JO mods is not inextricably linked to what is good for JO.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
A positive effect for you; a negative for anyone playing or creating mods.
Well a positive effect for me and many others, but the important point is that what is good for modmakers is not necessarily good for anyone else. JO players, for example. So the reverse of your statement is also true.

An expansion could favour us both, only one of us, or neither of us. But the possibility that it may have a positive effect outweighs any such risks, since both our communities seem to be fading away right now.

Opus, once again I agree with most of your points.

And Fatal, you're good at this succint mediation thingy! Keep it up.


[FW] Spider AL
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Old 11-14-2002, 02:23 AM   #107
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Actually there is a large difference between respecting philosophies and respecting everything said. The post I was refefing to as a "load of crap" was mainly the post of opusvi which had mostly to do with it was acceptable for todays companies to act in the illogical and self destructive methods of operation (hence the industry-wide crisis and bankruptcies). So that had nothing to do with any philosophy that could be respected. I dont know if I need to write novels for posts like you do in order to make my posts clearer but just for the sake of clarity and redundancy: "illogical and self destructive methods of business" (I quoted myself, yes, saved you the work there) can not qualify as a philosophy which I could respect, just like the link of the scratchware manifesto: can only be be classified as propaganda and aggresive activism and not as a philosophy either. So my comments of the "load of crap" were directed at such. If it was "stating the obvious" and nothing else then it was quite a useless and redundant post anyway. Stating the obvious is by its very definition redundant and pointless.

People are entitled to shoot down the activist link I had posted. And them not agreeing with it has nothing to do with them being, what was it "conchie pacifists," the reason for which I had posted the link is the only point of criticism here not wheather or not they agree with it.


And yes stating the obvious truth was used as discouragement in this thread, there aren't many reasons one would state the obvious as it would be a waste of time.

"paranoid, out of line, ..." I suggest we take direct attacks to character and behavoir to a private channel since these points of view and weather or not you think I'm out of "your line" bare no significance whatsoever to me.
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Old 11-14-2002, 09:52 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Of course this is correct Arti. What I was remarking on was the fact that regardless of whether mods succeed or fail, they are rarely the "saviours" of the games whose engines they use. If a 'CS for JO' was created, it wouldn't save JO, just as CS didn't save HL. Thus, what is good for JO mods is not inextricably linked to what is good for JO.

Come on man, don't argue minutiae. You know what I'm getting at here.
Quote:

Well a positive effect for me and many others, but the important point is that what is good for modmakers is not necessarily good for anyone else. JO players, for example. So the reverse of your statement is also true.

An expansion could favour us both, only one of us, or neither of us. But the possibility that it may have a positive effect outweighs any such risks, since both our communities seem to be fading away right now.
...


You make me weary...and remind me of some philosophy majors that I've known that will argue until they're blue in the face just because they enjoy it. :/

Your arguments are extremely anti-mod. That's what got me started on this whole argument in the first place. You don't care about how the mod community fares because you've spent all of your time mastering the vanilla game, and are probably very insecure about whether your skillset will transfer over into mods if the mods become more popular than your current game. This is compounded by the fact that ProMod is aimed directly at serious, competitive players and the tournaments they participate in. You don't want this to happen, so you're here in the forums trying throw support behind an expansion pack that would be released without tools so that your flagging official version of the game will get a much needed shot in the arm. At the same time, this would cripple mods and mod-makers and thereby forcing players back into the official version if they want to play JO anymore at all. This would be a best-case scenario for you.

Were you truly as magnanimous as you're trying to make yourself seem, you would have stopped this argument long ago by throwing your support behind an expansion pack that would be good for all players and modders, not just you and your ilk. You have stated numerous times that you care nothing for the mod community, and only want to see an increase of players for the regular game. Your attitude is one of one-sidedness and malice towards a group of people who have proven that they care much more about the future of the game than you do (witness the donation of months of mod-maker's time--for no pecuniary return, nor promise of one). We are fixing and expanding on the community, while your influence is one myopia and selfishness.

I truly hope that no one in a position to control the fate of jk2 has read your posts and agrees with you.


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Old 11-14-2002, 12:59 PM   #109
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I'm relying on an expansion in order to achieve my modding aims. You see Artifex, your arguments are extremely biased, you only actually care about the multiplayer. JK1 was a great game because it had awesome MP as well as awesome SP.

Now, believe it or not if Raven were to be the ones to make an expansion there is a good chance they would use non-compiled data for some of the singleplayer game. What's so good about this? Well it means a greater proportion of the singleplayer game would be moddable, allowing for more unique singleplayer mission.

Lets look at this even more, MOTS expanded on JK1s cog verbs, adding more functions and generally allowing a lot more customization, the MOTS engine allows quite a lot of enhancements such as extra weapons, greater capacity for player-input etc. Did these enhancements kill the JK1 modding community? NO. Why should they?

How is an expansion pack going to affect the JK1 base, an expansion would likely be a seperate game much in the same way that MOTS was, which merely requires the JK2 cd. Within a few months of an expansion release, all copies of JK2 would be bundled with the expansion. I honestly don't see the problem.

The vanilla JK2 players are accused of being uneasy about having to transfer our skill to a different play-type, this is probably true. But it seems like the modding community (if Artifex's view is truly representative of it) is afraid of a little bit of code debugging and tweaking in the MINOR POSSIBILITY that an expansion makes changes to the base code. Modders believe that JK2 editing has developed to such an extent that it would suffer from IMPROVEMENTS to the game engine and code? Reality Check: There have been zero revolutionary mods for JK2, with the possible exception of Hydroball were it to still be in development. Raven aren't so evil that they would make all old mods completely incompatible with new code.

TAKE A CHANCE.
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Old 11-14-2002, 01:15 PM   #110
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Opusvi,

Quote:
I'm not telling anyone to go and "f" themselves. I think that in all truth, Artifex and his contemporaries probably have good reasons, motivation and means to make their projects come to life. But for the most part, and I speak for the majority of game buyers in this regard, I'm not all that interested in what they have to sell/rent/give away for free. On his own description of ProMOD, Artifex clearly states that his "is a system that rewards great player skill, and conversely punishes those of lesser abilities."

Well, being one of those MAJORITY of players with decidely "lesser abilities", who doesn't like MP to begin with, why is it that I'm supposed to be popping cartwheels about his idea exactly? Not that I don't respect Artifex's obvious skill and technical know-how and such, but this is just not something I'm ever going to want. Will most n00bs want to download a mod that will allow old-timers like him and Spyder to more easily cream them in MP? Do you think they'd ever want to pay for that?
For someone who loves to here themselves talk, you aught to take some time to make sense.

A game without competition is nothing more than a pillow fight - a whole lot of puffing and fluffing (kinda like your last post). Online gaming is 99.9% competition nothing more - nothing less. ProMod is primarily intending to improve the competitive quality of JK2, thus the game overall. Improving JK2 is in the best interests of moders, developers and ultimately gamers alike.

And please stop presuming that you are speaking for the Majority of gamers. You speak for yourself only. Using presumptuous qualifiers to prop-up your argument is feeble to say the least.

You seem to have blurred the lines between rationalization, pontification, presumption and blatant supposition.... In all honesty that's an achievement in itself.

Take this not as a flame but as merely constructive criticism from an average gamer that does not wish you to be his gaming representative
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Old 11-14-2002, 01:25 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
I'm relying on an expansion in order to achieve my modding aims. You see Artifex, your arguments are extremely biased, you only actually care about the multiplayer. JK1 was a great game because it had awesome MP as well as awesome SP.

This is completely untrue. When I call for "all tools" to be released, I'm talking about the single player source as well.
Quote:

Now, believe it or not if Raven were to be the ones to make an expansion there is a good chance they would use non-compiled data for some of the singleplayer game. What's so good about this? Well it means a greater proportion of the singleplayer game would be moddable, allowing for more unique singleplayer mission.

Lets look at this even more, MOTS expanded on JK1s cog verbs, adding more functions and generally allowing a lot more customization, the MOTS engine allows quite a lot of enhancements such as extra weapons, greater capacity for player-input etc. Did these enhancements kill the JK1 modding community? NO. Why should they?

Because if new animations were added to the expansion pack without the animation tools being released, then all jk2 mods would be utterly incapable of duplicating the features(animations) of the expansion pack. What if they added a true double-sided lightsaber stance and a dual saber stance? What if they renamed some of the existing animations? That's not some minor code fix to support the new feature. That's totally impossible without the tools.
Quote:

How is an expansion pack going to affect the JK1 base, an expansion would likely be a seperate game much in the same way that MOTS was, which merely requires the JK2 cd. Within a few months of an expansion release, all copies of JK2 would be bundled with the expansion. I honestly don't see the problem.

If after 3 pages of this thread, you still don't see the problem, then I can't help you.
Quote:

The vanilla JK2 players are accused of being uneasy about having to transfer our skill to a different play-type, this is probably true. But it seems like the modding community (if Artifex's view is truly representative of it) is afraid of a little bit of code debugging and tweaking in the MINOR POSSIBILITY that an expansion makes changes to the base code. Modders believe that JK2 editing has developed to such an extent that it would suffer from IMPROVEMENTS to the game engine and code? Reality Check: There have been zero revolutionary mods for JK2, with the possible exception of Hydroball were it to still be in development. Raven aren't so evil that they would make all old mods completely incompatible with new code.

TAKE A CHANCE.

I'm not worried about minor changes. I'm worried about impossible changes. The one I mentioned above falls into that category.

Argh. Have you actually read this thread? Maybe you need to reread it. Nobody here is afraid that the jk2 modding community is going to suffer from the basic game being improved through an expansion pack. What is a problem is if these improvements fall outside the capabilities of the current released toolset. That means that no current mods will be able to duplicate the new features. That will lead to many mod makers receiving emails like, "Wow, I like your mod, but I can't use the cool new saber moves from the expansion pack in it, so I never play it. Can you put those in?"

The mod author's answer: "Sorry, it's impossible without the animation tools."


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Old 11-14-2002, 04:29 PM   #112
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You also seemed to have missed my point. You seem to equate "expansion" with "mod", now OBVIOUSLY if an expansion were released which was just a mod and had new features such as animations which can't be duplicated it might be a problem.

But expansions very rarely work this way, they are either standalone games or they build on the existing features of the original game.

So what if they add new animations? BIG DEAL. If you are really that bothered about animations decompile the model viewer and work out the algorithm which allows it to display the animations. Then work backwards and make your own rudimentary animation tool, JK1 had one after-all.

The problem with this community is that we keep expecting Raven or LEC to do everything for us, this community has a severe lack of ingenuity. Where are all the user-made tools to assist on mod-making?

What gives you this strange idea that Raven are so STUPID that they would even CONSIDER messing with the saber after the uproar after two patches. The most likely shape an expansion would take is as follows:

Singleplayer: New Missions/Storyline, possibly new features, force powers etc.

Multiplayer: New Maps, possibly a new game-type, NO GAMEPLAY CHANGES.

Don't you see? Just about everyone is against gameplay changes to multiplayer, that's the modders job. An expansion pack is supposed to EXPAND on what already exists without changing the basic shape of the game.
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Old 11-14-2002, 06:44 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
Come on man, don't argue minutiae. You know what I'm getting at here.
Actually Arti, my point was pivotal. You are constantly predicting doom and gloom effects from an expansion and despite the many and varied ways I've put my point, you still don't seem to grasp the fundamental fact that an expansion has a chance of helping the JO community. A community which is dying already. If you are interested in the JO community, I'm sure you want what's best for it.

If, on the other hand you're only interested in the modding side of the community, which we've already established is unlikely to help the rest of the JO community just as CS never helped the HL community... then that's rather short-sighted and provincial, isn't it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
You make me weary...and remind me of some philosophy majors that I've known that will argue until they're blue in the face just because they enjoy it. :/
I wondered whether you would become slightly unpleasant, Arti... I must say I'm saddened.

I debate, because I believe in what I'm debating about. And frankly, as long as you are here posting replies and comments about my posts, I will continue to reply to you. If you're accusing me of delighting in argument for its own sake, then you are assuredly accusing yourself as well as you have been posting here longer than I, and your viewpoint is far more inflexible than mine.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
Your arguments are extremely anti-mod.
Actually mods are irrelevant to my arguments, as I've explained to you before. I don't play your mod, I don't play any mods. There are many people who don't play mods. Your portion of the community is not the whole community, nor is it the only part of the community that matters. I care about JO. That's what I care about. It is that simple.

I don't care about Unreal Tournament. Does that make me a bad person? No. Mods are separate from the games they use. They are different games, without the box or price tag.

I care... about JO.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
You don't care about how the mod community fares because you've spent all of your time mastering the vanilla game, and are probably very insecure about whether your skillset will transfer over into mods if the mods become more popular than your current game.
Ah, Artifex the amateur psychoanalyst. I could say "You're wrong, the reason I became the player I am is because I was willing to adapt to all patches, 1.05 would be no different, whatever its contents." But, you would probably choose not to believe me anyway. Your head, your rules, and your own prerogative.

Besides, I find "you only care about your own silly vanilla game you bad bad man" tack somewhat rich, coming from someone who throughout his arguments and despite a protestation to the contrary, only seems to care about how an expansion would affect his own mod.

Not that there's anything particularly bad about that... but there's nothing bad about caring about the vanilla game either. QED. We're both good guys.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
This is compounded by the fact that ProMod is aimed directly at serious, competitive players and the tournaments they participate in. You don't want this to happen
"Ahh! SPID0r si out to GET ME!!!1"

I realise you've spent a lot of time making your mod and expended a lot of effort to make it your vision of what the game should be like... but acting as if Promod is the only possible saviour for JO is both pre-emptive and somewhat arrogant.

I'm sure Promod is very good and fun, but the fact remains that it's your game. It's your interpretation of what the game should be. This does not mean it's guaranteed to improve on JO Vanilla.

And I'm not out to get you, btw. I have no doubt your mod is good, and deserves to succeed. But I am interested in JO vanilla.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
you're here in the forums trying throw support behind an expansion pack that would be released without tools so that your flagging official version of the game will get a much needed shot in the arm. At the same time, this would cripple mods and mod-makers and thereby forcing players back into the official version if they want to play JO anymore at all. This would be a best-case scenario for you.
You persist in attempting to paint me personally as some sort of mod-eating monster who hates mods and modders...

But for the final time, The question of mods survival is separate from the question of an expansion's merit in that the tools you want could be included in the expansion, or not, and that would not affect the expansion's effect on any other portion of the community except modders. Now it would be regrettable if modders were inconvenienced by an expansion, but since the game is dying anyway, don't you think it's worth the risk?

My portion of the community could be damaged by an expansion just as easily as yours could. I'm willing to take the risk, however. It's worth it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
Were you truly as magnanimous as you're trying to make yourself seem, you would have stopped this argument long ago by throwing your support behind an expansion pack that would be good for all players and modders, not just you and your ilk.
Hmm. Have I, or have I not stated categorically on no less than three occasions that an expansion that favoured everyone would be an ideal situation? Yes, I have.

Read more carefully, please. You missed it no less than three times.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
Your attitude is one of one-sidedness and malice towards a group of people who have proven that they care much more about the future of the game than you do (witness the donation of months of mod-maker's time--for no pecuniary return, nor promise of one). We are fixing and expanding on the community, while your influence is one myopia and selfishness.
While mods are good and wholesome, you are not "fixing" the community. Mods are standalone products that merely use the engine as a base. To fix the community would require official sanction and official patches.

Nor do mod-makers care about the game more than dedicated players. Mod-makers think they can make something better or different, players play the game daily and grow very fond of it. On the other hand, players do not necessarily love the game more than mod-makers.

You seem to be saying that modmakers are in some way superior to other people. This is, of course, untrue. We are all equal.

And, sorry, but "malice?" Have I not stated categorically that since I don't play mods, I have no negative nor any very positive feelings on the matter?

As far as mods are concerned, I'm thoroughly neutral. Sorry if my neutrality offends you, but that's the way things are.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artifex:
I truly hope that no one in a position to control the fate of jk2 has read your posts and agrees with you.
Well well, how vindictive and childish. I do not share your sentiments however, and hope that if anyone's opinions are taken into account by Raven or LEC, I hope yours are, as well as mine and everyone else's.

Quote:
Originally posted by ksk h2o:
I suggest we take direct attacks to character and behavoir to a private channel since these points of view and weather or not you think I'm out of "your line" bare no significance whatsoever to me.
You confuse personal attacks with descriptions of your blatant behaviour on this forum. "what a load of crap" is a good example of insulting, though.

And I'm sorry, but why would I want to get involved in an argument with you in a private channel? I don't particularly enjoy reading your unpleasant posts here.

Quote:
Originally posted by ksk h2o:
If it was "stating the obvious" and nothing else then it was quite a useless and redundant post anyway. Stating the obvious is by its very definition redundant and pointless.
Well actually, many people, you for instance, seem to be either wilfully or unknowingly blind to the obvious.

You seem to find it so threatening that you claim it's attacking you. Go fig, I certainly can't ascribe any logic to such a sentiment.

Detritic, good posts, I agree with most of what you say.


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 11-14-2002, 07:23 PM   #114
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Spider, from what i'm reading, you want an expansion pack, not to fix the game in particualar, but i'm sure you would, but to in effect spark new interest and new players.
But using past patches as what to expect from the future, chances are The game won't be ballanced and/or as fun as it could be.
Now you talk about taking a chance with a new expansion, in hopes that it will spark interest and raven might tweak the game in a positive way, now considering that chance, lets look at the other "chances" of patches 1.03 and 1.04 (I am calling them "chances" because they were apparently not tested well enough to be a sure thing), these may have attracted new players out of curiosity, but, how many of them stayed, and morever, how many of the previous players remained?
I am supporting mods not out of some personal reasoning, but that with mods, the game has hopes of being ballanced and fun, likes of which from a patch i don't expect to happin.
While a mod will probably won't attract as many new players as an expansion would, it would probably keep the ones that are still there.
Now the question is, do you want to attract a whole lot of new players that will be turned off by game inballances and lack of inovation over other games, or keeping the existing community frm dieing off?
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Old 11-14-2002, 07:50 PM   #115
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Post Self appointed populism?

Crusher, I was only trying to speak from the pov of someone who does not play JK2 online on any kind of frequent basis. Were you assuming that I was speaking for the player with average skills who regardless spends at least some amount of time on JK2 MP? If that was the impression I gave, I should clear up that I wasn't. I mean to say that I was one of the majority of players with lesser abilities; I also happen not to engage in MP gameplay.

But I still maintain that I'm right in pointing out that the majority of JK2 owners do not in fact play online MP. If this is not indeed the case (which I doubt) then obviously my pov would be a minority. But for most JK2 players, Promod is not a vital concern. JK, for now, sells and appeals to consumers primarily on the basis of STAR WARS, not the strength or weaknesses of MP gameplay. If it had no MP gameplay, I can assure you that JK2 would have had robust sales nonetheless. Moreover, JK2 MP is free for users so LEA has little incentive to perfect it as opposed to working on SW:Galaxies which will incidentally include fighting, though hopefully not for the sole advantage of people with fast reflexes.

I jumped into this thread because the conversation here is mostly between hard-core gamers who by their own admission, have a far superior skill set than the average player. Some of them seem to think this makes them uniquely qualified to judge critical aspects of gameplay. I disagree. I think that goes back to what Spider was saying about making the game fun and what fun means to people. MP debates about fun don't mean much to me because I don't play.

I would doubtlessly agree that only someone like Artifex could possibly be qualified to decide whether or not thrusting with an open line should somehow deflect a high outside, be followed by a compound parry from the fourth position, and then have the optional right to ripost.

Promod is an MP mod only and will not affect the SP experience. More importantly, I fail to understand how a mod which by the author's own admission makes gameplay more demanding and benefits players who already have an edge in experience by making them more powerful and "punishes" poor players can make my SP experience of JK2 better? Frankly, I find it hard to believe that making the game's combat mechanics significantly more difficult so that an even smaller percentage of players can dominate over everyone else will have a positive effect on the community at large. That is unless of course, only the hard core gamers like Artifex and Spider are indeed meant to benefit from this.

I'm assuming that you instead meant to say that it benefits the game as a brand name and thus will ship more boxes of product. Well, I could see why LEA would care, but not why I should be all that concerned. My main interest is the expansion pack which is going to come out anyways and which will sell regardless of your opinion, mine or that of anyone besides some Wharton MBA in a $2000 suit who does the cost-benefit analysis. And if anyone thinks that my comment that George Lucas could crap in a box and sell it as a game product was mere hyperbole, you should pick up a copy of Force Commander.

If they include anything interesting in the way of MP when JK2: Kyle Kills Some Ewoks, is released then that's great for online players. And it will be even better if this coveted modmaking toolset is released, both for those who want it the vanilla MP game and and those among them who play online mods. However, it doesn't matter to JK2 buyers, like myself and many others, who do not do so.

Saying that 99.9% of online gaming is competition is just stating the obvious and I fail to see what it has to do with my argument. Also, more interesting question is just what is it that the other 0.01% think they're doing? Maybe some of them have indeed are indeed on a "Bedtime Battles:Pillowfighting Mod" server. I've been online for a while now and though I have six different games which I could play competitively online, I don't. I have many different reasons running the gamut from my admittedly poor skill set, poor internet connection, time limitations, lack of interesting MP gameplay, etc... It's disingenous to simply assume that the majority of JK2 players are eager to take each other's heads off online for the sheer fun of it.

While you didn't like my post with it's ingenious combination of "rationalization, pontification, presumption and blatant supposition", you haven't actually told me why you disagreed with them. If you honestly wanted to give me serious constructive criticism I'd really appreciate it. It could be that I'm not reading it right, but all I seem to get out of your post is that you think I'm stupid and I should shut up. Needless to say, I disagree...but that might be simply because I am in fact quite stupid and thus should indeed shut up. Hmmm...

If I truly loved to hear myself talk, I'd get a job in radio. Also, thank you for pointing out that your post was not, in fact, a flame. See, I was really confused about that point, since all those pejorative comments and personal attacks really threw me off for a loop. It's a good thing you cleared up that confusion for me!


"I'm gonna join the Empire, get bossed around, attack sand crawlers filled with Jawas, have weird hooded old men wave their hands whilst saying 'These aren't the droids you are looking for' and eventualy have my oxygen supply cut off by someone in a plastic hat."
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Old 11-14-2002, 10:17 PM   #116
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opusvi,

Online gamers and games are currently setting most industry trends. Most major releases are internet dependent. To presume otherwise is nonsense.

Actually, ProMod makes gameplay far easier, your only assuming it makes game play harder. Get a bit of playtime, then let me know what you think. Artiflex has removed randomness and luck from JK2mp and replaced it with control, intent, and cause-effect. Greater control is nothing more than efficiency and an easier time playing, thus more fun. To play ProMod you do not need fast reflexes so much as intelligent strategy. Reflexes come second to strategy. You assume to much. And it is this simple assumption of yours that leaves your opinion hollow and senseless - albeit humorous.

"Stupid..." did I think that?! I consider someone that has so much fun rationalizing about nothing far from stupid. To fill so much space with air is truly an art.

Any expansion to JK2 will most likely be single player. This thread may be much to do about nothing. If LA and Raven do touch upon JK2mp then I'll "presume" this time, or take a guess, that they'll give us online players what we want - a combat system done properly - alla ProMod - with a few new maps.

In all honesty I had hoped that JK2 would be an improvement on Raven's Heretic2 combat system. Many features were added but the fundamental core of the JK2 combat system fell short with many flaws. Artiflex has fixed that. I can now only hope that LA and Raven will take an honest look at these improvements.

Flame or no, you set yourself up when you pretend to know something you don't.

Last edited by MrCrusher; 11-15-2002 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 11-14-2002, 10:41 PM   #117
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Of all the arrogant things i've seen on these forums, the previous post comes very close to topping the list.

Opusvi's post wasn't about Promod, it mentioned it because its a popular example nothing more, believe it or not some people's lives don't revolve around plugging Promod at every possible moment.

MrCrusher, your own argument is self-defeating. You say Promod makes gameplay easier, yet in the same paragraph you say that it emphasises control, accuracy and strategy. These are precisely the factors which seperate a good player from a bad one. Your argument is essentially saying it makes it easier for good players to win, which is precisely the point opusvi was making. His point was that this isn't necessarily a good thing, lower-skilled players NEED some aspect of the game to grasp onto from which they can elevate their own poorer skills.

As a "more skilled" player, I get increasingly frustrated by excessive use of force push and pull. But here's the thing, without this one ever-present obstacle that even the weaker players can use, the good players would just win every game without breaking a sweat. It may not be "fair" for good players that weaker players hold a lethal weapon against them no matter their skill level, but it gives the weaker players something to work with.

You talk about reflex and strategy, how in promod strategy takes the centre stage. What exactly is your point? Ask any "elite" player and they'll say that overall strategy plays a far more important role than the odd kill you may get from superior reflexes. I would say that my reflexes are pretty fast in terms of JK2 Guns, but I still get beaten by players with higher accuracy and better strategy. So I would say that reflexes take a 3rd place not just 2nd.

As it stands this "randomness and luck" talk I hear so much about means absolutely nothing to me and i'm guessing many other CTF players, we've spent a long time figuring out just when each attack works and how effective they are, i've yet to hear one complaint along the lines of "arghhh stupid randomness meant he took less damage", in fact the only noticable random factor in Guns gaming are the spreads of the stormie rifle, repeater and flechette.

On a final note, all the comments myself and Spider_AL have made are based on opinion, or logical derivation from known facts. Yet MrCrusher's post whilst having many inaccuracies is put across as fact, in fact it seems his entire purpose of posting was to try and prove Opusvi wrong. It reminds me of a little thought I came up with a couple of months ago, I didn't think i'd have a real opportunity to use it so soon.

"The world is just a forum of people waiting for the opportunity to prove each other wrong"
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Old 11-15-2002, 12:04 AM   #118
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DeTRiTiC-iQ,
Did I say, think or imply the word "fact" somewhere. My previous post was 100% unadulterated opinion. There is no right or wrong in opinion... just plain ol opinion. Maybe my opinion sounded a bit to forceful, but I type what I type without malice, with an occasional harmless fireball thrown in. Sorry to have hit or... torched a nerve.

There is no fact, or right and wrong in a forum - only opinion.

My apologies if I upset you.


P.S.
Quote:
believe it or not some people's lives don't revolve around plugging Promod at every possible moment.
Actually, I was thinking of challenging Artifex to a duel.... Once I've cut off his head I shall become supreme Ruler of ProMod.

Last edited by MrCrusher; 11-15-2002 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 11-15-2002, 08:25 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrCrusher


P.S.

Actually, I was thinking of challenging Artifex to a duel.... Once I've cut off his head I shall become supreme Ruler of ProMod.
That would be true if ArtifeX hadent lost his edge from programing too much
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Old 11-15-2002, 12:51 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
You also seemed to have missed my point. You seem to equate "expansion" with "mod", now OBVIOUSLY if an expansion were released which was just a mod and had new features such as animations which can't be duplicated it might be a problem.

But expansions very rarely work this way, they are either standalone games or they build on the existing features of the original game.

So what if they add new animations? BIG DEAL. If you are really that bothered about animations decompile the model viewer and work out the algorithm which allows it to display the animations. Then work backwards and make your own rudimentary animation tool, JK1 had one after-all.

The problem with this community is that we keep expecting Raven or LEC to do everything for us, this community has a severe lack of ingenuity. Where are all the user-made tools to assist on mod-making?

What gives you this strange idea that Raven are so STUPID that they would even CONSIDER messing with the saber after the uproar after two patches. The most likely shape an expansion would take is as follows:

Singleplayer: New Missions/Storyline, possibly new features, force powers etc.

Multiplayer: New Maps, possibly a new game-type, NO GAMEPLAY CHANGES.

Don't you see? Just about everyone is against gameplay changes to multiplayer, that's the modders job. An expansion pack is supposed to EXPAND on what already exists without changing the basic shape of the game.


Believe it or not, I totally agree with the last part of this post. If the expand on the game, as you say, rather than changing it and making it inaccessible to modders, then that would be great for everybody IMO. We'll have to wait and see what happens--if anything.


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