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Old 11-25-2002, 04:28 AM   #1
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Question Why did Dooku have lightning and Vader didn't?

What are your thoughts on this. Why did Dooku have force lightning and Vader didn't? They are both Lords after all!


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Old 11-25-2002, 05:41 AM   #2
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Hrm more on this yet to be revealed. Meditate on this I will.












[edit- Maul didnt have lightning either ]
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Old 11-25-2002, 06:19 AM   #3
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becouse Vader chose GRIP and Dooku chose lightning
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Old 11-25-2002, 08:16 AM   #4
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There has to be more to it than a simple matter of choice! Is grip more powerful than lightning? I always thought lighting was more powerful and that is why Sidious used it. Surely Vader would use the most powerful force power if given a choice!


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Old 11-25-2002, 12:27 PM   #5
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Well, it Depends upon the training. If Vader had no knowledge of the lightning, since he basically forgot nearly everything when he was Anakin, he might have not had knowledge. And with the clone wars, a lot of the jedi holocrons, which contained information on Jedi Force Powers being destroyed, there would be no record. So, it might have just been that the first time Vader saw Force Lightning was when he was watching Palpatine fry Luke.


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Old 11-25-2002, 01:02 PM   #6
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Count Dooku had previous skill and experiance with the Force, from being a Jedi Master and all. Anakin, when he became Darth Vader, did not have much control over the Force, so basically the training started from scratch (with things like Throw and Grip). Dooku already had great knowledge of the sheer power behind the Force (plus his own teachings from the Sith Holocron in the Jedi Temple), and so was able to handle the more challenging powers like Lightning. The Count probably has the knowledge to use Force Grip, but didn't use it against the Jedi because Lightning seemed the more... destructive power to use.

Also, Darth Vader wears gloves, whereas the people who have used Lightning so far (Dooku and Palpatine) do not. Maybe a glove or material covering the hand can disrupt the flow of Lightning? Plus, Vader's right hand is mechanical, so surely Lightning would overload the circuitry?


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Old 11-25-2002, 01:59 PM   #7
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I'm liking the mechanical overload and the gloves idea. I don't think lightning would go down well with all his curcuitry and I don't see how he could use lightning while wearing gloves.


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Old 11-25-2002, 02:02 PM   #8
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Is there anything canonical that says Vader doesn't have lightning? He may very well know how to do it, but just chooses not to. Maybe choking people is more his style... or maybe lightning has a problem going through space while force choking doesn't.

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Old 11-25-2002, 02:43 PM   #9
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maybe it has something to do with their force speciality (as i call it). dooku was more specialised in lightnin and vader in grip. thats what i think.
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Old 11-25-2002, 03:00 PM   #10
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In the old trilogy, lightsaber duels barely had no use of the force, just telekinesis...

Darth Vader did not want to harm seriously Luke. Grip is more frightening for casual people, who are the ones Vader uses it with.

About the mechanical hand, well luke and Vader did use the force to take things to their hands so the force may not be influenced by mechanicals. Of course the shorcircuit thing is still feasible - That is why Vader died, isn't it?

And Vader DID choke people with a gloved hand...


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Old 11-25-2002, 03:05 PM   #11
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And anyway, Dooku has more 'knowledge of the FORCE'

He is twice the age as Darth Vader's and A jedi Master before becaming a Sith lord.


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Old 11-25-2002, 03:17 PM   #12
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My question is whether or not Vader's left hand is mechnanical, or just decided to wear 2 gloves so that he matched. If he did have a normal hand/arm, he could have used lightning (if he knew of it and knew how to use it). Although, I don't see force lightning being the same kind of electrical current as lightning we see... Lightning that WE as people can see has enough power to light NYC for a whole year (according to a statistical survey) so for the lightning used in SW, I think it wouldn't have affected his circuitry. I thin Vader died because the Emperor used the force lightning on him, and force lightning is very fatal. And in Vader's condition, after losing his hand (again), he was in a weakened state, where as Luke was younger, healthier, and stronger. Any comments?


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Old 11-25-2002, 03:54 PM   #13
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his left hand wasnt mechanical, thats what i think.

and i believe vader died because he wanted to see lukes face true his real eyes. so he/luke removed his helmed which was optional to keep him alive and without that he died.
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Old 11-25-2002, 05:29 PM   #14
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I like the idea that Vader was "overloaded" by the lightning from the Emperor. Can you believe this movie (ROTJ) has been out since the mid-80s and that is a point still debated? Really, I still have a hard time figuring out why Vader died just from removing his helmet or getting hit once with the force lightning. Luke took more than Vader and Anakin got knocked out for a bit by it in Ep II. Perhaps Ep III will have more lightning. It definitely was cool having Yoda be able to absorb the lightning though.

We all must know, given clues dropped in EpII and what we know of the original trilogy that Anakin, most likely at the hand of Obi-Wan, seriously gets carved up by a lightsaber to be so mechanical. I think he may very well have two mechanical hands/arms and could not use force lightning because of it. He was able to stop a blaster laser (Han solo, TESB) with his hand, but that's different.


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Old 11-25-2002, 05:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Old Rep Knight
He was able to stop a blaster laser (Han solo, TESB) with his hand, but that's different.
That was just the fire repelling off his steel armor.

As for how he died, Vader said himself that it was too late for him, and he would die with or without the mask. I speculate that the metal in his armor conducted a super charge of electricity into his body, far more than could be conducted by air. This was probably enough to kill him.


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Old 11-25-2002, 06:57 PM   #16
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I think vader could'nt do Lightning because he (probably) had two mechanical hands.

As for how Vader died, I agree with Andy. I also don't think it's regular electricity. It has something to do with the Force. Maybe it's like force grip just a lot more powerful.


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Old 11-25-2002, 08:53 PM   #17
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well imo it was the lightning that killed vader, it messed up his breathing gear and the other devices that kept him alive. so it makes sense that vader couldn't use lightning.

the question i think needs answering is, if they could clone whole humans then surely they could clones body parts and vader could of had transplants instead.
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Old 11-25-2002, 10:00 PM   #18
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Exclamation

Well, here's what the starwars.com databank has to say:

"Unable to watch anymore, Vader turned against his master. He grabbed a surprised Palpatine from behind, hoisted him above his head, and tossed his evil master down a bottomless reactor shaft. Vader was bombarded by the Emperor's Force lightning, mortally wounding him."
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Old 11-25-2002, 11:56 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Old Rep Knight
I like the idea that Vader was "overloaded" by the lightning from the Emperor. Can you believe this movie (ROTJ) has been out since the mid-80s and that is a point still debated? Really, I still have a hard time figuring out why Vader died just from removing his helmet or getting hit once with the force lightning. Luke took more than Vader and Anakin got knocked out for a bit by it in Ep II. Perhaps Ep III will have more lightning. It definitely was cool having Yoda be able to absorb the lightning though.

We all must know, given clues dropped in EpII and what we know of the original trilogy that Anakin, most likely at the hand of Obi-Wan, seriously gets carved up by a lightsaber to be so mechanical. I think he may very well have two mechanical hands/arms and could not use force lightning because of it. He was able to stop a blaster laser (Han solo, TESB) with his hand, but that's different.
Star Wars Episode VI The Return of The Jedi has been out since 1982 and yes it is something that this subject is still debated exactly 20 years later. The mask is what kept Vader alive and without it is why he died so quick. He would have died anyway but not as quickly had he not had Luke take his helmet off. (I've watched all of the originals so many times I know them by heart) that's why when he said to Luke "Luke help me take this mask off so that I may look upon you with mine own eyes" Luke said to his father "But you'll die without it". Everything that you need to know about Darth Vaders suit and helmet are explained to a great degree in the original trilogy and yes it should be explained alot more and alot better in Episode III (I hope)


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Old 11-26-2002, 12:30 AM   #20
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I think with Darth Maul was the fact that he wasn't that strong with the dark side of the force.......meaning that he was a better swordsman and fighter then a user of the force.

The more I read on topics like this the more I'm starting to think how good of a sith Count Dooku is.....

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Old 11-26-2002, 01:07 AM   #21
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Vader still is better. Ya know the simplest explaination needs to be thought about. Vader just didnt have a need to use lightning, he just didnt feel like it. From the all the other explainations I think the best one is the mechanical hand and suit overloading.


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Old 11-26-2002, 09:57 AM   #22
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But by that same logic, any lightsaber struck by force lightning may as well have to to be overloaded, because the lightsaber itself is just concentrated energy from crystals, which lightning can move through, and would overload the circuitry inside the lightsaber, but we all know that didn't happen with Obi-wan.


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Old 11-26-2002, 11:46 AM   #23
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Dooku shouldnt have used lightning that was palpatine's move
like vader and his grip
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Old 11-26-2002, 07:07 PM   #24
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well luke used force grip on those gamorrean guards.....


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Old 11-26-2002, 07:29 PM   #25
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I think that Vader did not use Lightning cause it was not his style like many people have said before me. I can also say that it was sloppy. I mean you really don't have to control it that much. It just fans out. With the Grip it is more precise. It must take more dicipline to use since no one else used it. I mean he choked people without him actually being at the location. He was very strong. The mechanical arm theory is very good as well. As for why he wore two gloves was because he had to seal his suit. He is in a whole suit so that is why he wore it like a NASA suit.

As for how he died. If you notice when Luke is fighting with him and then Vader is on the floor. Then Luke tosses his Lightsaber and talks to Palpatine. Vader is already breathing hard. You can tell that his breathing is not normal. It sound like his breathing is more heavier and harder to breath. Then when Palpatine is frying Luke with the Lightining you see Vader over Palpatine's shoulders. He is breathing heavily there also.
Then he picks up Palpatine and you can see that he is getting electricuted at the same time. Then afterwards he falls to the floor and Luke talks to him. Then there is the whole scene with him telling Luke to take his helmet off and the no you'll die dialogue. He was injured by Luke before Palpatine used the Lightning.


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Old 11-26-2002, 09:44 PM   #26
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Of course he was injured. His hand got cut off and he was giving up.


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Old 11-26-2002, 10:42 PM   #27
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But why would his hand being cut off make him die. He was really more injured so that was why he had began to die. His hand had been cut off other times before and this one was a cybernetic one so it's like it would of killed him. Lukes was shot and he didn't get really injured by it. It was like a scratch or a little jolt of pain.


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Old 11-26-2002, 10:48 PM   #28
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I think that like the human body, the cybernetics of Vader's body were slowly wearing down and wearing out, hence his heavy breathing. An indication of a failing breathing unit. And even with his cybernetic hand, it was still attached to human flesh and human nerve, so of course it had to hurt like a.... yea. But also, It was after the Emperor said, Now.. You Die... that';s when Palpatine turned up the juice on the Force Lightning, so eventually when Vader hurled Palpatine over the edge, thats' what probably was the final blow to begin the end of Vader's existence


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Old 11-26-2002, 10:52 PM   #29
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He was injured not dying. The lightning is what fatally hurt him. If you had your hand but off youd be breathing harder. Look at how Luke felt and breathed when his hand was cut off. Btw when Anis arm is severed in AOTC he is also knocked unconsious by Dookus Force push and the shock of the injury. So thats why he didnt show pain then. But he did after he awoke.


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Old 11-26-2002, 11:09 PM   #30
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Actually, I'd think it'd be more of traumatic shock then unconscious. I mean, wouldn't freak out if you lost nearly all your arm?!?


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Old 11-26-2002, 11:18 PM   #31
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Yeah, with the loss of blood....I'd probably pass out. O.O

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Old 11-26-2002, 11:55 PM   #32
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well, what's weird Leemu Taos is that some lightsaber wounds cauterize the wounds, but some don't... I mean, look at Obi-wans slash to Darth Maul... completely cut in half, but no apparent loss of blood. but then look at like Dooku slashing Obi-wan's arm and leg, and when Obi-wan dismembered that criminal in ANH. There was blood there.


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Old 11-27-2002, 02:43 AM   #33
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well, what's weird Leemu Taos is that some lightsaber wounds cauterize the wounds, but some don't... I mean, look at Obi-wans slash to Darth Maul... completely cut in half, but no apparent loss of blood. but then look at like Dooku slashing Obi-wan's arm and leg, and when Obi-wan dismembered that criminal in ANH. There was blood there.
If you look closely when Obi-Wan cut's Maul in half you see a little red mist that is there after he is cut. If you also see when Vader cuts Luke's hand off there is no blood. The wound seems to be carterized too.


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Old 11-27-2002, 03:38 AM   #34
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There is blood just not very much. The wound carterizes fast due to the extreme heat. It also depends on where your hit. When Obi cut Maul in half the blade of course went through the main artery in his torso (forgot what the vein is called). Most of the blood travels through that vein. Lots of blood, lots of pressure. So theres going to be blood when cut there. The wound then fully carterized and thats why there was no blood when he fell.

When Dooku cut Obi he just nicked him. He touched the blade to his arm and poked his leg. Small wounds, fast carterizing so no blood. When he took off Anis arm well I would think thered be a little bit of blood. There is a large vein in all limbs. But again maybe too small a wound. Same with Lukes hand.

But then theres the thing in ep4 where Obi severs the arm of that criminal and theres blood clearly. Again think about where he was hit. The top of the arm. There is a large artery/vein that travels through there. Ani was hit at the elbow where there is not a large artery. Is that right? Im no biologist. Afterall it is still a movie. We shouldnt dig too deap you know. It can make a person nuts. And weve all met those kind of people before havent we?


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Old 11-27-2002, 04:24 AM   #35
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Yes we have. We don't want to turn into those people know do we JediNyt


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Old 11-27-2002, 09:48 AM   #36
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IN THE DARTH MAUL COMIC!

maul duals a nightsister:
N. do you know what i am?
M: a nightsister, A witchof Dathomir, skilled in the use of the darkside of the force.
M: you understand so little.
N: Do i? youve never faced my kind before.
M: youve never faced MINE!
N: we'll see.
*starting dual*
maul realy kick her ass... he is slising her sword in 2... (nightsister use weird swords, not lightsabers)
N: a nightsister is NEVER unarmed.
N: even you cant stand before force lightning.
N: and the power of the dark side...
M: nnng*in pain*
M:..you..know..NOTHING...of the dark side!!!
N: ho can you...resist... i know, i know what you must be.
M: *rises and cuting her in two...(just like obi wan did to him)

th end!

anyway earlier, darth maul uses grip on a guy.. a mon calmari!
so maul got grip but not lightning...
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Old 11-27-2002, 09:50 AM   #37
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calmari - what is he, an alien squid?


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Old 11-27-2002, 02:39 PM   #38
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Quote:
calmari - what is he, an alien squid?
Admiral Ackbar is a mon calamarian... It's probably just one of those things... like Elan Sleazebaggano... where Lucas pulls something out of his arse and gives it to the people writing EU as kinda a joke. Notice nobody ever says Mon Calamari or Sleazebaggano in the movies

Anyway, the thing with Ponda Baba... I'm pretty sure Lucas admitted that that was a mistake... then, I think he said something about maybe Baba's blood chemistry being different so it wouldn't cauterize or something Anyway, I wonder if that scene could be reshot minus the gore for the edition to come out with the Prequels?



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Old 11-27-2002, 03:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jedi_Monk


Anyway, I wonder if that scene could be reshot minus the gore for the edition to come out with the Prequels?

I hope they do....that would make me happy.



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Old 11-27-2002, 04:54 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sarlacc Food
IN THE DARTH MAUL COMIC!

maul duals a nightsister:
N. do you know what i am?
M: a nightsister, A witchof Dathomir, skilled in the use of the darkside of the force.
M: you understand so little.
N: Do i? youve never faced my kind before.
M: youve never faced MINE!
N: we'll see.
*starting dual*
maul realy kick her ass... he is slising her sword in 2... (nightsister use weird swords, not lightsabers)
N: a nightsister is NEVER unarmed.
N: even you cant stand before force lightning.
N: and the power of the dark side...
M: nnng*in pain*
M:..you..know..NOTHING...of the dark side!!!
N: ho can you...resist... i know, i know what you must be.
M: *rises and cuting her in two...(just like obi wan did to him)

th end!

anyway earlier, darth maul uses grip on a guy.. a mon calmari!
so maul got grip but not lightning...
Remember that this is of course EU and theres nothing that says Maul can or cant use lightning. It is a Dark power. It might be a more advanced power that requires more mastering of the Dark side like Sidious and Tyranus have.


May the Force be with you...
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