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Old 12-06-2002, 10:24 PM   #41
Syfo-Dyas
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh
After chatting with Nutritious today, he asked if we ever played the CTF map "Bespin Towers"
Bespin Towers is a cool map, but it has no BOT support. Such is the case with many a cool map, and CTF is REALLY lacking in this area!

PLEASE! If anyone here -within the sound of my printed words (?)- knows how to make good BOT routes, NOW IS THE TIME TO SPEAK UP! Your community needs you...


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Old 12-07-2002, 04:09 AM   #42
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Yes, I made Towers, and no, nobody has been able to make decent botpaths for it. If you want to try, you have all the resources you need in the towers download.

Personally I have yet to find a use for bots in CTF, I appreciate their use in FFA and Dueling for practise/aim-training. But they have no purpose whatsoever in CTF other than to *very slowly* move towards the flag.
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Old 12-07-2002, 10:20 AM   #43
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I'll make sure to take a look at Bespin Towers. Is there anyone out there willing to set up some bot paths for it? I just don't have the time to do it myself.


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Old 12-07-2002, 11:50 AM   #44
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I'd do it if I knew how.. and I checked it out, ofcourse. If bot paths in MP are like they are in SP I could do it, if not I'll shut up now. And Art? My skin.. How do I specify for it what points I want and to what? I know how to make bots, but I wanna know how to customize'em for ProMod if possible


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Old 12-09-2002, 07:30 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolf Devil
I'd do it if I knew how.. and I checked it out, ofcourse. If bot paths in MP are like they are in SP I could do it, if not I'll shut up now. And Art? My skin.. How do I specify for it what points I want and to what? I know how to make bots, but I wanna know how to customize'em for ProMod if possible
No idea man. Bot paths are not my forte.


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Old 12-09-2002, 07:49 AM   #46
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You can get the bot pathing tutorial here. It's pretty easy to come up with some basic bot routes.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:58 AM   #47
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Well in the case, I'll be GLAD to make the bot paths once I check out the map

*starts off in the direction of jk2files.com and stops* Uh.. Whats the map again?


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Old 12-09-2002, 02:37 PM   #48
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Thumbs up SOME NEW ADDITIONS

Hello.

We have some goodies to add to the list of Maps/Skins/Models that are approved for the ProMod MediaPak 1. Keep in mind that this is only a list I'm compiling for ArtifeX for items I have gone though and feel would be worthy of inclusion. He will have the final say on what actually goes in to the MediaPak and what will have to wait for MediaPak2 -and of course, what will go into bin marked "Syfo, what were you thinking?"...

Also note that the complete list is the first post of this thread, and is updated as needed.

If you have a suggestion for things you'd like to see, please take advantage of this opportunity to make me aware of them.

If you made a map or a model that you want to have considered for inclusion, let me know. If you are wondering why the map or model you made isn't on the list please ask.

We STILL need CTF maps!

New additions include:

PadPak
-Some great duel maps in here -VERY well done.

Yavin Twilight
-A very creative CTF/FFA map, although a little TOO dark. I'd really like to see some kind of light in this map that would allow the player to see where they're going without spoiling the cool mood the author created.

Battle of the Water Forts
- A very nicely done CTF map. It runs a little choppy on my computer, but I think it'll probably play online well enough.

Kit Fisto model
-Anyone who sounds like Flipper, and looks like Squidly-Diddley is alright in my book!

Jerec model
- Really nicely done villian from JK1! He snarls and laughs at you, he's about as Sith as you can get and at least as evil as he was in the JK1 cutscenes. Also includes some really cool alternate versions for team play
(One thing I'd like to see for Jerec is his cape! He had a cool cape! Couldn't a cape be added as an alternate skin or something???)

ObiVM (Obi-Wan)
- A pretty decent Episode 1 Obi-Wan. I'd be open to seeing others that look a little more like him, but this one is pretty good. Still like to see some good ANH versions, if they exist.

END OF LINE...


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Old 12-09-2002, 03:03 PM   #49
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Cool. How long can we expect to wait before a release? What's still left to do?

Maybe a post listing everything that needs to be done would be a good idea here, if you're looking for help and volunteers.
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Old 12-09-2002, 03:06 PM   #50
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Syfo, Jerec was not a Sith, but a dark Jedi. There's a difference. And no, a cape couldn't be added as an alternate skin, it would require an alternate model . The Jerec model has a few faults to work out, but can be hammered out by an experienced pk3 editor (me). I also have a skin I'd like to include into the pack.

Edit: I can do the bot paths for any maps requiring them aswell


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Old 12-09-2002, 03:48 PM   #51
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theres an annoyng problem with the tyrion model that needs to be fixed before it is re-released... when you dismember the arms on the un-robed jedi, it shows his arm as robed, and viceversa. im sure this is easy to repair, but i think would help keep the quality of the pak to its highest standards.


umm, yeah. so... stuff.
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Old 12-09-2002, 03:51 PM   #52
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That's BloodRiot's fault, I would imagine... Has the Tyrion model been decided to go into the pack?


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Old 12-09-2002, 04:02 PM   #53
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yes. its in the list.


umm, yeah. so... stuff.
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Old 12-09-2002, 04:05 PM   #54
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Art's list or Syfo's list? Big difference between the two


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Old 12-09-2002, 04:09 PM   #55
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the one up top. ive never seen artifexs list.


umm, yeah. so... stuff.
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Old 12-09-2002, 04:17 PM   #56
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Well we can only make suggestions here, it's up to art to decide what's in and out


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Old 12-09-2002, 04:24 PM   #57
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/me keeps poking art with a stick until he does what we say.


umm, yeah. so... stuff.
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Old 12-09-2002, 05:55 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolf Devil
Syfo, Jerec was not a Sith, but a dark Jedi. There's a difference. And no, a cape couldn't be added as an alternate skin, it would require an alternate model .

Edit: I can do the bot paths for any maps requiring them aswell
Oh, Moi, Moi, I love you! Messa your humble servant!

I know Bespin Towers would be first on that list. I could probably find some others as well. Is it a big task to add the BOT routes?

Regarding Jerek: Okay, I stand corrected -Dark Jedi... I'll have to do some research on that. I always had figured they used the that term because the word Sith was never used in the original Star Wars movies until Ep 1 came out -which was after JK1.

Anyway, are you the one responsible for Jerec, Wolf Devil? Nice work! You know you could probably use Count Dooku's model for a caped version -just a thought. I always thought Jerec's cape looked cool with that red symbol that along the edge.

In terms of a release date? I do not know. I hope soon, and I can't see any reason why it should take very long. It's just a matter of ArtifeX deciding what he likes, and putting it together in a file. I can send him any of the files listed. I don't think it is required of the servers to support the Media Pak. Personally, I think it should at least be STRONGLY encouraged.

I think it'll be cool to see enough maps that games don't get boring from the same maps over and over again, and enough models/skins that each player can have something a little different and unique for themselves. Plus, many of them have custom sounds/taunts which does nothing for gameplay, but helps keep things new and fresh. And everyone will see each other's charactor too. It's always a bummer when you are using Vader or Maul and everyone else sees another Kyle Katarn!
I'm really looking forward to this.


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Old 12-09-2002, 06:30 PM   #59
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Don't forget to email the authors of every single file you include asking for permission. Especially if the file includes work of some other author
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:04 PM   #60
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What the... I had nothin to do with Jerec other than killin him in DF2:JK (and changing around his sounds and the bot files... AFTER release)!!! I was just commenting that for a caped version of Jerec would require an entirely new model, and I've mentioned to Madjai that the red symbols on the straps and the straps themselves were part of the cape.

As for Bespin Tower: Show me where it is, I'll download, explore, and path it

Dark Jedi VS Sith: Jerec, Boc, Gorc, Pic, Sariss, Yun, Maw, Desann and Tavion have all been referred to as dark Jedi, not Sith. I've asked the Jedi Council (on the official site) if there was a difference between a Dark Jedi and a Sith or if it was just LEC screw up, but I've yet to seen it answered. I think the following possibilities are: 1) Sith = always evil, Dark Jedi = fallen Jedi, 2) Sith and dark Jedi have a different connection to the dark side, 3) the word "Sith" is not known of after the Galactic Empire had arisen


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Old 12-09-2002, 08:23 PM   #61
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http://www.massassi.net/levels/files/2025.shtml

Although I don't see why everyone is making a big deal about Towers, Kashyyyk Tree Canopy is a far superior map:

http://www.massassi.net/levels/files/2483.shtml

Both of these maps need bot-support. Bespin Towers will be the harder of the two to get it working well.
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Old 12-09-2002, 08:44 PM   #62
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Red face

Oh, stop basking in your glory Detritic! If you'd have been doing BOT routes, like you were supposed to, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.


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Old 12-09-2002, 08:58 PM   #63
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. I'll see what I can do, I already got tree canopy, but when routing I'm gonna have a heck of a time not making the bots walk in the thin vines since it seems right... Hell, I would...

Edit: Yay, I'm a Sith probe droid


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Old 12-09-2002, 09:54 PM   #64
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Don't forget to email the authors of every single file you include asking for permission.
Ugh! geeeezzzz...I just knew this was going to come up...

Okay, here's the deal. I have no intentions of asking for 'permission' for any file. It would be great to have the author's 'blessing', but it's not necessary -and neither is 'permission'. All of these maps, mods, skins, models, and whatever ("MODS") are derivative works. If the author has any issues about certain people or conditions for which their MOD should not be used, then they really had no business releasing it in the first place. It's public domain now -in a way. There is one and ONLY ONE entity who controls any JO MOD's ONCE they are released -and that is LucasArts. You can read the License agreement for yourself if you'd like - I'm paraphrasing, but I'm not making anything up.

MODS are 'shady' in general. I can't think of any MOD I've seen that included the author's full name AND home address. Usually, you get an alias and an Email. Also, many mods use other copyrighted material -which is expressly NOT allowed. I don't think anyone polices these MOD web sites looking for Darth Vader samples, which is a good thing because I am sure they know that they would find them. They don't look for them because they obviously know that it's just 'fans' having harmless fun, and although copyrights are being violated, it does more harm than good to enforce them in these cases. So I believe they must turn a 'blind eye' to all of this.

Such is not the case in some domains. I've seen nasty letters that people have received for having a web site containing images which bare the likeness of the Simpsons, for example. In these situations you are TOLD that you WILL remove them from your site and submit the material over to FOX.

Let's not get greedy here, Detritic. We've got a good thing going. Let's keep it that way. If this were the music industry it would be 'lawsuit city'. It's buIIsh1t! Let's NOT go there. If an author of a MOD feels they need to retain control of their work, technically they should have never created it to begin with. But the next best course of action would be simply NOT to release it to the public. Because once that is done, the cat is out of the bag.

I feel that ethics DO come into play here. I object to anyone claiming to have authored someone elses work. I also feel strongly, that credit be given to the author. And that information is legally mandated anyway.

Just to put this into perspective, let's remember WHY these MODs exist in the first place: It showcases talent, and allows us to have communities like this one, or Massassi, and many many others. None of these would exist if the MODs didn't exist. So let's enjoy them for what they are, and leave it at that.

I REALLY REALLY hope that this issue has been put to bed, and that little more will be written about it...


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Old 12-10-2002, 12:44 AM   #65
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well put

well i must say you said that pretty well syfo... On a lot of threads i've read... especially related to pro mod there is one person who shall remain nameless who seems to try to create trouble. I'm glad you wrote such a good response to that and hopefully people might learn to support the community a bit better
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Old 12-10-2002, 01:18 AM   #66
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if you use peoples models and maps you should include who did each map with their email address in the readme.

If someone used one of my models in their mod I would like to know about. People are idiots and if you don't include who did what everyone will think it was done by one person. Ifsome other mod team/game company liked a model/level in the mod and wanted to know who did it, all they have to do is look in the readme.

As far as permission I don't think you need it, its just common courtesy to let the authors know your using their work. I would expect someone to email notifying me that they are using my model in their mod.
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Old 12-10-2002, 03:02 AM   #67
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you are right... sort of

as for emailing each person... this may be difficult... acknowledging work is different... that is something that will prob happen!
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Old 12-10-2002, 10:13 AM   #68
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There will be a readme file in the Media Pack that will contain a list of all the contents, and their respective authors/artists if I know who they are. Credit will be given if at all possible.

I'm not just going to throw together a bunch of other peoples' work and call it my own. I'm just trying to sift through the loads of community content out there, determine what is really worthwhile, and compile it into one nice, neat package that anyone, regardless of how familiar they are with the game, can download and enjoy.


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Old 12-10-2002, 01:32 PM   #69
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Regardless of legality, the only stuff I would EVER include in some of my projects without specifically contacting the author for their approval is work which has been specifically put in the public domain as editing resources.

maps, models, skins etc aren't usually intended as resources for mappers/modders but rather as end products, which is why its POLITE to ask permission. Screw legality, its "legality" which is making everyone sue everyone else to make pennies.

The system I (and all the editors I know personally) use is as follows:

- If the file(s) have been released as resources, ie textures, shaders etc. Credit the author in the readme file
- If the file(s) have been released as end-products, ie maps, skins, models etc. E-mail the author and ask for permission, even though I'm legally allowed to use their work without permission, I won't.
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Old 12-10-2002, 02:44 PM   #70
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Hey Wolf Devil,
I'm planning on releasing a new soundpack for the Jerec model (which I would like to have included in the mediapack rather than what's there now). Perhaps you'd like to compare notes and see what we can come up with? PM me if interested.

Edit: Btw, the issue about the "inaccuracies" of the Jerec model has been brought up quite a few times. I probably should have included it in the readme, but the Jerec we created is in no way meant to be a replication of the cutscene Jerec. We used a combination of in-game Jerec, concept art Jerec, and the face of the actor who played Jerec. If we meant to be totally accurate, he'd be quite a bit chunkier, balding, and you'd be able to see his eyes through the "blindfold"

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Old 12-10-2002, 06:05 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
maps, models, skins etc aren't usually intended as resources for mappers/modders but rather as end products,
JK and JO are 'end products', yet we don't think twice about hacking in to them. JK didn't even come with the tools or have a special area for mods.

Regardless of original intention, I take more of an 'open source' attitude. I view all mods as 'works in progress'. If you can improve it in some way or do something special with it, I think you should.

Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Screw legality, its "legality" which is making everyone sue everyone else to make pennies.


Like everything, copyright has it's place. But by-enlarge I see your point and agree with you. This notion of "Intellectual Property" is ridiculous, and ultimatly will do more harm than good.

Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
even though I'm legally allowed to use their work without permission, I won't.
I can certainly respect that.


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Old 12-10-2002, 06:37 PM   #72
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this might be interesting to you guys

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthrea...049#post946049

read the last 5 or so posts.
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Old 12-10-2002, 06:43 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by inbredyokel
Edit: Btw, the issue about the "inaccuracies" of the Jerec model has been brought up quite a few times. I probably should have included it in the readme, but the Jerec we created is in no way meant to be a replication of the cutscene Jerec. We used a combination of in-game Jerec, concept art Jerec, and the face of the actor who played Jerec. If we meant to be totally accurate, he'd be quite a bit chunkier, balding, and you'd be able to see his eyes through the "blindfold"
Yes, I know, you told me that on jk2files.com (I was the chanting guest ). I guess somehow I was expecting him to be more game-like... Ingame he looked kinda cool.. I woulda played with him in JK MP but I don't like the idea of being bald and old :P . I've never seen any concept art so I'm not too sure what came from them, as for the face of the actor: I didn't know Christopher Neame has a gray spot under his nose and when you backed off from him he looked like he had cat lips . Or that you could grate cheese on his face. But despite the ingame flaws, it's a wonderful model and I'll enjoy killing its bot (which I've edited) or those playing with him.

I have a few questions, but I suppose that can wait for e-mail/IM


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Old 12-10-2002, 10:12 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolf Devil


Yes, I know, you told me that on jk2files.com (I was the chanting guest ). I guess somehow I was expecting him to be more game-like... Ingame he looked kinda cool.. I woulda played with him in JO MP but I don't like the idea of being bald and old :P . I've never seen any concept art so I'm not too sure what came from them, as for the face of the actor: I didn't know Christopher Neame has a gray spot under his nose and when you backed off from him he looked like he had cat lips . Or that you could grate cheese on his face. But despite the ingame flaws, it's a wonderful model and I'll enjoy killing its bot (which I've edited) or those playing with him.

I have a few questions, but I suppose that can wait for e-mail/IM
Um, ok, I guess you needed to insult me there. Let me address these issues of yours:
1. There's a gray spot under his nose? Please do show me where on the skinmaps I placed a gray spot under his nose.
2. The problem with the lips has nothing to do with the model, it's jedi outcast's screwy lighting. It's the same reason that the Tyrion model has a faint "V" shape on his forehead.
3. I don't really get the whole deal with the cheese grating..maybe cheese graters are shaped like faces where you come from?
Well, if the model is so awful, I guess you can make a better one, right? Anyway, I don't know if you're trying to mess with me or what, but according to your email my soundpack is terrible while yours is somehow better, even though yours is exactly the same as the original in every way.
But all sarcasm aside, I'd ask that neither Artifex nor Syfo-Dyas accept any edits to the Jerec model from this guy. He's been nothing but rude and insulting towards me.
Anyway, I'll drop it since this is way OT(sorry bout that). If you guys would still like to include Jerec in your mediapak, just send me a PM with your email and I'll get him to you with the completed soundpack.
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Old 12-10-2002, 10:42 PM   #75
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I had no intention of insulting you, I was just admiting it's not perfect. If I wanted to insult you, from the beginning I would have gone "OMFG!!!!!!! This is s***!!! This aint what I wanted!!! It's f***in stupid!! You're the worst modeler in the world, it's f***in disgusting!!! I mean GOD!!! I've seen n00b mini-mods with more talent than this!!!!!". However you will note that I never said any of that before now because none of it is true. As for the bein rude part.. well, I woulda done pretty much all of the above only I'd say it mean .
1&2: They're both JO light related, I found this out a little while ago in a duel when the bot was packing in and out of the light.
3: Never mind
The model is not awful, but like I said it's not perfect either, and no I can't make a better model, but that does not mean I can't point out certain flaws/things I was confused or was wondering about. And I didn't say your soundpack was awful, I just said it sounded weird and I didn't say it was better, I just said I... I didn't even have a chance to say anything about it since you didn't comment on it. Also my soundpack is NOT the same in every way. Jerec's sounds didn't need to be changed, they needed to be rearranged, in my opinion. Oh and..
Quote:
Originally posted by Wolf Devil
But DESPITE the ingame flaws, it's a wonderful model
And as a final note, I aint even giving the pack anything, edited, created or otherwise, I've only made suggestions of levels, models and skins.


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Last edited by Wolf Devil; 12-10-2002 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 12-10-2002, 11:15 PM   #76
inbredyokel
 
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Ok..I think I understand. I've just had very bad experiences with people harassing and/or trying to steal work, and your criticism struck me as more sarcastic and biting than constructive.
Anyway, if you want to continue this conversation, please PM me. I don't want to plug up this thread any more than it already is.
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Old 12-11-2002, 12:27 AM   #77
Moradivh
 
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As a student 3D artist I can sympathize when someone makes criticisms that are... how we say... badly worded. I haven't seen Jerec in-game, but Wolf Devil's comments did seem pretty rude to me.

I'm sure you didn't mean to offend Wolf, but you really gotta work on your tone. I know you were probably trying to be funny and cool, and just say your mind. But if you're gonna volunteer to edit somebody else's work you better think about how you'd react if a guy on a forum started making depreciating jokes about stuff you've spent tens of hours creating. You could've made all the same criticisms without sounding so damn smug.

It's freakin' hard to make good textures/models. Be nice.
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Old 12-11-2002, 01:08 AM   #78
Syfo-Dyas
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by inbredyokel

Anyway, I'll drop it since this is way OT(sorry bout that). If you guys would still like to include Jerec in your mediapak, just send me a PM with your email and I'll get him to you with the completed soundpack.
Speaking of insults, how does one refer to you by your alias and not offend you??? I mean, I can't say "Hey, InbredYokel!" Can I???

Anyway, I'm quite fond of your treatment of Jerec. actually. I would have liked to see a caped version, but I'm cool with what you've got. Might be neat if he did that 'tongue thing' as well -but probably a little out of the question...

I like the sounds too. Are you saying that there is more sounds to go with him than what I downloaded?


TO JOLTS:
Yeah, that was interesting. Funny how it's all about "community" until it's 'your stuff' that's involved. Then folks start drawing 'property lines' and expecting royalty checks... heh heh -don't hold your breath...


Syfo ~ Dyas

Got ProMod???

ProMod homepage: www.oculis.org/promod
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Old 12-11-2002, 09:26 AM   #79
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Ok guys, it's time

It's time to get the best of all the media listed in this thread together in one small A-list. I can already say that Toonces Kit Fisto model is a shoe-in, as will be his Mace Windu if he can finish it in time.

I'm wrapping up Promod 3.1, and I want to simultaneously release the Media Pack 1.

Syfo: you need to go through all the maps and see if they've got bot support, and judge their quality, then do the same with the models/skins. Once you've got a short list, pass that along to me and I'll see about getting it put up on my server for some beta testing.

Remember, I'm looking for around 3 duel maps, 3 ffa maps, and 3 ctf maps. Once I look at how big that download will be, we'll see how many models and skins we can get into the game also.


Artifex *ASC*
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Old 12-11-2002, 10:52 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh
As a student 3D artist I can sympathize when someone makes criticisms that are... how we say... badly worded. I haven't seen Jerec in-game, but Wolf Devil's comments did seem pretty rude to me.
It wasn't meant to be rude, I simply mentioned some things I noticed in-game.
Quote:
I'm sure you didn't mean to offend Wolf, but you really gotta work on your tone. I know you were probably trying to be funny and cool, and just say your mind.
I can't work on my tone since I only have one, and I didn't mean it to be funny or cool.
Quote:
But if you're gonna volunteer to edit somebody else's work you better think about how you'd react if a guy on a forum started making depreciating jokes about stuff you've spent tens of hours creating.
I don't volunteer, I just do but I don't release it FOR it to be critized... And for the record the only thing I've volunteered for is bot pathing!!
Quote:
You could've made all the same criticisms without sounding so damn smug.
If I knew how, believe me I would.
Quote:
Be nice.
Not one of my strong points.
Quote:
Originally posted by inbredyokel
Ok..I think I understand. I've just had very bad experiences with people harassing and/or trying to steal work, and your criticism struck me as more sarcastic and biting than constructive.
I just think that there were some things I thought flawed/needed to be addressed. And about the face: I just thought that maybe you or madjai could have dragged the vertices along the edge of the face in so it wouldn't look so danged sharp...... Don't everybodies jaws drop at once, I may not be very good at modeling yet, but even I know SOMTHING about it.


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Last edited by Wolf Devil; 12-11-2002 at 11:02 AM.
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