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View Poll Results: Do you believe evolution or intelligent design occured?
Evolution 26 55.32%
Intelligent design 19 40.43%
Don't have a clue 2 4.26%
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Thread: The History of the Universe
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Old 04-04-2003, 08:21 AM   #321
dekerd
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre the Frog
Another fatal flaw: the watch wasn't invented then.
I don't follow...

Quote:

Scientists really don't need to prove evolution created humans and everything, cause really what can you use it for? (other than use it against religious people)
The uses for Evolution studies are infinite. Science isn't about proving religion wrong, it's about FACT based on objective evidence.
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Old 04-04-2003, 11:08 AM   #322
C'jais
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre the Frog
Scientists really don't need to prove evolution created humans and everything, cause really what can you use it for? (other than use it against religious people)
Use what for? Proving it?

I'm thinking that if you prove to people that it works, that it's true, that it has all the facts behind it, that it can produce life-saving medicine, I bet more people would jump the wagon and become scientists themselves.

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Accept that evolution happens now, that's what is important to realise. To hell with all that other stuff!
What other stuff?


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Old 04-04-2003, 11:14 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally posted by dekerd
So basically, the Creationists are looking for evidence for something they already believe to be FACT.
Yes. Keyword here is believe.

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Scientists who believe in Evolution believe in it because the scientific evidence points to that explanation.
...Which makes believing in it redundant, but I see your point (:

Quote:
Creationists have a theory --> look for evidence
Evolutionists have evidence ---> look for theory

There's another fatal flaw inthe intelligent design argument...
1. The universe works like a watch
2. Only a mind could create a watch
3. The universe was created by a mind

...and that flaw is: the Universe does not work like clockwork.
You could also just wipe that argument off the plate by saying that humans have a tendency to explain anything too complicated or immediately understood as the work of some higher being.

-"I don't know why there's change in winds and thunderstorms these days. Must be God."

-"I don't know what created humans or the universe. Must be God."

That way, you never need to search for any other explanation. The answer, of course, is right there already.

And by the way - welcome to these here forums!


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Old 04-04-2003, 04:31 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally posted by C'jais
Use what for? Proving it?

I'm thinking that if you prove to people that it works, that it's true, that it has all the facts behind it, that it can produce life-saving medicine, I bet more people would jump the wagon and become scientists themselves.
You're not proving it wasn't designed to happen (though I don't believe it was)

It is used in many ways in medicine according to my aunt (whose one of the head nurses of the second largest hospital in Denmark)

I'll get back to you on the specifics when I get back from Italy

Quote:
Originally posted by C'jais

What other stuff?
Bashing religious people in a futile attempt to make them accept your world view

Quote:
Originally posted by dekerd

The uses for Evolution studies are infinite. Science isn't about proving religion wrong, it's about FACT based on objective evidence.
My point excactly, but there's a huge differens between accepting something as a model and accepting something as the truth. What I'm saying is accept evolution is happening now. What happened billions of years ago really wont help all that much


The pendulum swings between sadness and boredom.
In heaven there is no sadness, and only eternal boredom is left.
- Paraphrased from Arthur Schopenhauer.

Last edited by Pierre the Frog; 04-04-2003 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 04-04-2003, 06:02 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre the Frog
You're not proving it wasn't designed to happen (though I don't believe it was)
You're not making any sense Pierre.

What was designed to happen? Evolution? Us proving it?

Quote:
Bashing religious people in a futile attempt to make them accept your world view
1) I'm not bashing. ST takes care of that (:

2) It's not futile in any way. Think what you want, but at least I got that hope.


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Old 04-04-2003, 06:15 PM   #326
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre the Frog
What I'm saying is accept evolution is happening now. What happened billions of years ago really wont help all that much
Not true. What happened in the past is just as important, perhaps moreso, then what's happening in the present and what will possibly happen in the future.
Knowledge is gained through observation; to throw away everything that we've found out about the past just because it was "billions of years ago" doesn't make sense. There is a lot of history there, and a lot to be observed, studied, identified, etc.

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Old 04-04-2003, 08:13 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally posted by C'jais
You could also just wipe that argument off the plate by saying that humans have a tendency to explain anything too complicated or immediately understood as the work of some higher being.
Exactly. It's an explanation for things we do not yet understand (our origin) and things we could never understand (our future).

EDIT: And thanks for the welcome.
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Old 04-08-2003, 10:22 PM   #328
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Quote:
Originally posted by dekerd
Exactly. It's an explanation for things we do not yet understand (our origin) and things we could never understand (our future).
and i think thats the problem with some of these people is they never accept new found answers with proof given. they just say its a god that made this and thats it.


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I am life without limit.”
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Old 04-09-2003, 04:39 AM   #329
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El manifesto del ladron del tiempo

Quote:
they just say its a god that made this and thats it.
Out of the Test-tube of world's vanity and fear... just kidding

People are animals so you don't have to count on the them in these matters. And I grow faint from rage when thinking of people's wonderful ability of simplifying things (reason 1 lower in the text) and how pathologicaly they use it to suppress their fears. We all now stand in the head of the World Revolution as never before in the human history, which has started so instantly and is not eager to stop at all. In these stressful times people turn to the only "salvation" left for them to hide in. Instead of thinking the best of themselves they try to adopt the feeling of religious powers which give them right to answer any question that our (unfortunately subjective) fabric of reality indow by just quoting a passage from the bible. One have to know the bigger part of the answer to ask a question (I don't remember who said that). They try not to even think of answers TO ASK QUESTIONS. HOW DUMB IS THAT!!! And the quote about god's deed is just a question to what "god" they are refering to.

I don't try to say that the belief in god is outrighteous or that monotheistic way is better or more "developed" than the polytheistic one (Personally a believer and both mono and poly are the same. It's a stage everyone knows that!). The Force itself for example is a very good analogy of god (something out there, something you can barely interact with, something with an unknown purpose). And The Jedi Order as it's prophetary. Perhaps nothing new.

The evolution is definetly running our species and intellectual splash is one of it's elements (We just got lucky).

No matter for what answer you have come here (to hear opinions or just to chat as I did) you already know your origin. So this part of understanding that the Darwin's theory of evolution ( to say , it looks even better with Richard Dawkins additions) gives us is fulfilled. Now there is a way only for improvement and everything else leads to stagnation. And for a fact number of people who say otherwise is getting to the minimum. The same will happen to the people who say that "god did it and that's it"

Quote:
You could also just wipe that argument off the plate by saying that humans have a tendency to explain anything too complicated or immediately understood as the work of some higher being.
People simplify things for different reasons:
1. To understand more clearly they winnow their most advanced theory so polishing them, sometimes unifying them with others
2. To minimize their efforts for understanding something they are not familiar with.
3. In the name Emperor Palpatine just because he commanded so

People complicate things for the SAME reasons

P. S.
I admire any single person who come here and even try to think of these matters (even though he had a brain surgery or some jawa tryed to talk to him on the matter of evolution, and some 2 minutes of his chattering made him invalid for the rest of his life). You all did a great job no matter what you tryed to prove. You all succeeded. That's why you're humans.
And if someone didn't find here anything worth reading or he already knew everything as a given fact than he still got the assurance of his own right opinion (At least I have) and that's incouraging

It is hard for a beginner to earn respect and that was not the primary reason to enter the conversation even though unanswered

Any criticism is expected only with gratitude and may the Force be with all of us...
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Old 04-09-2003, 09:27 AM   #330
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Re: El manifesto del ladron del tiempo

Quote:
Originally posted by Homuncul

I admire any single person who come here and even try to think of these matters (even though he had a brain surgery or some jawa tryed to talk to him on the matter of evolution, and some 2 minutes of his chattering made him invalid for the rest of his life). You all did a great job no matter what you tryed to prove. You all succeeded. That's why you're humans.
And if someone didn't find here anything worth reading or he already knew everything as a given fact than he still got the assurance of his own right opinion (At least I have) and that's incouraging

i feel better after that for some reason.


“This body is not me. I am not caught in this body.
I am life without limit.”
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Old 04-15-2003, 08:01 PM   #331
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Quote:
Originally posted by Psydan
Lol, just wondering why humans haven't developed photosythetic cells yet, because that would be pretty nifty.(This remark was purely in fun, I'm not requiring any proof about time and cell structure, etc. for this one.)
And while we're dreaming, I'd like a pair of Angel Wings, a suit of Tactical Dreadnought and a Rosarius Force Field Generator (joking, of course, though the wish-list is real enough).

Quote:
1) I'm not bashing. ST takes care of that (:
Hmmm... I guess that you're the MOD... But that would be flaming in my book... Strictly speaking... I'm not bashing anyone, bashing=futile flaming. I tear their arguments apart, though...

Quote:
I grow faint from rage when thinking of people's wonderful ability of simplifying things (reason 1 lower in the text) and how pathologicaly they use it to suppress their fears. We all now stand in the head of the World Revolution as never before in the human history, which has started so instantly and is not eager to stop at all. In these stressful times people turn to the only "salvation" left for them to hide in. Instead of thinking the best of themselves they try to adopt the feeling of religious powers which give them right to answer any question that our (unfortunately subjective) fabric of reality indow by just quoting a passage from the bible. One have to know the bigger part of the answer to ask a question (I don't remember who said that). They try not to even think of answers TO ASK QUESTIONS. HOW DUMB IS THAT!!! And the quote about god's deed is just a question to what "god" they are refering to.
I'll take that... You won't need it when the revolution comes!

You're right, though maybe this blanket dimissal of religion is better suited to the Bible thread or the Spread of Ignorance thread, both of which are located elsewhere on this board.

I've got another funny paragraph from WhiteRaider's link:

Quote:
6 - SOLAR COLLAPSE—Research studies indicate that our sun is gradually shrinking at a steady rate of seconds of arc per century. At its rate of shrinkage, as little as 50,000 years ago the sun would have been so large that our oceans would boil. But in far less a time than 50,000 years, life here would have ceased to exist. Recent studies have disclosed that neither the size of the sun, nor our distance from it, could be much greater or smaller—for life to be sustained on our planet.
LOL. They assume linearity. Not even High School students do that.

Checking their alledged source;

Quote:
"By analyzing data from Greenwich Observatory in the period 1836-1953, John A. Eddy [Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and High Altitude Observatory in Boulder] and Aram A. Boornazian [mathematician with S. Ross and Co. in Boston] have found evidence that the sun has been contracting about 0.1% per century during that time, corresponding to a shrinkage rate of about 5 feet per hour. And digging deep into historical records, Eddy has found 400-year-old eclipse observations that are consistent with such a shrinkage."— *"Sun is Shrinking," Physics Today, September 1979.
we see that they have made several fatal misunderstandings:

1) The data set is too small.

2) They are converting exponentiality to linearity. This is done by making an approximated 1st degree polynomium. Keyword "appoximated". The further you go from the point of approximation, the worse the approximation will get.

Typically for the site, though, they give no precise math, so it's near-impossible to see how they arrive at their conclusions. But the above is my best guess. It's a typical mistake made by Juniors.

Quote:
In 1968 it was discovered that the sun is emitting hardly any neutrinos. This evidence points directly to a very youthful sun.
So somehow this crooked creationist site has managed to measure the otherwise incredibly elusive Neutrinos... I'm sure that the scientific world, that is still struggling to figure out how, would be delighted to hear of this. LOL. Thanks for giving me this excellent entertainment, Raider, though proof it'll never be.


Last edited by ShadowTemplar; 04-15-2003 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 05-31-2003, 12:02 PM   #332
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On the subject of the Earths Magnetic Field:

Apparently it's switching over, so that north becomes south and south becomes north. It's been proven that this has happened before, because rock samples have shown fluctuation between being magnetically north and magnetically south, in the same area. So the field is in the process of switching now and should do so within the next 500 years, displacing yet another creationist 'argument'.

Most of the below is muchly theory, still needing definite proof but:

The field is kept going by Lava swishing in the earths core and causes energy and therefore creates the field.

This field was believed to have protected Planet Mars billions of years ago from Solar Dust. Mars' field disappeared however, for an unexplained reason as of yet. Life on mars suffered from the solar dust which eventually consumed the planet. That's why Mars died. And yes, it's now widely accepted among scientists there was once life on mars and oceans too. Maybe not intelligent life but simple life at any rate. Mars was not old when it died.

God, all this stars and planets stuff is so romantic!

Anyway, that's my two cents worth


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Old 05-31-2003, 12:16 PM   #333
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Thanks for the input, Yuf.

And welcome to these here forums


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