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Old 02-02-2003, 07:04 PM   #41
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Det is right. Every one good knows that its good to land a shot with splash on the ground or wall. The only trick shots that are commonly done is to shoot a rocket at someone's feet, knock them into the air, and hit them against a wall. Besides that, mid-air's aren't really useful. Most of the special frag vids make the players seem better than they really are, since midairs aren't practical unless ur chasing somenoe with flag who jumps and you can't possibly follow.


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Old 02-02-2003, 08:54 PM   #42
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Well, it's a bit obvious I wasn't talking to you. Look at your thread, was I? No

Now, look at this

"But anyone who claims that Nutritious or DSBR has the "less skilled video" is just biased. That goes for Detritic and RP."

Now, since you NOW read the above replies, who do you think I was talking to?


Skill is nearly...non existent in a game with such random factors in it. I wasn't saying any of them weren't skilled. I was saying, it does take more "skill" meaning effort, in nutri's video than dsbrs.


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Old 02-03-2003, 01:42 AM   #43
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You were talking to me? Hahahah, now I'm as confused as Detritic. Unless you're replying within about 10 minutes of a post, you may wanna specify who you're talking to. It's not that obvious.

Anyways, I hear ya Det. I play best in a trance, let my instincts take over. If I get all stressed about my opponent's cheeze, or doing some sexy move, then I'm usually painting a target on my head. And I know such selfish thoughts about individual glory can totally ruin good teamplay.

RP: before you go reporting me, you may wanna review quotes like: "it does take more 'skill' meaning effort, in nutri's video than dsbrs." I mean, duh, isn't that EXACTLY what I said your claim was? How am I putting words into your mouth?

Here's one thing that threw me: skill and effort. They're not the same. Not even in JO, where the gameplay is somewhat limited by pull-whoring and kick-spamming and whatever equivalent that's in your gametype. But.... somebody can have all the experience in the world and still not do as well as someone with natural talent. So basically, when you say "skill" I assume you mean SKILL, not effort. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Anyways, some background for my opposition: I don't play BaseJK CTF. I don't know sophisticated team tactics. I don't wall-glide with speed/rage. I don't rocket people into walls so that they're sitting ducks. I don't do mid-air sniping. And I don't make demos with special observer code to do slow-mo's and spectator rotations and all that crazy **** in the Quake3 Engine. And I find all this VERY impressive when I see them from DSBR/Starcraft/Nutri/etc.

Between the Pistolero and DSBR vids, I don't know which took more "effort," but I'm pretty damn sure they were both REALLY time consuming. It looks like the DSBR one was a long while in the making. It's 10 freaking minutes long for God's sake. And anyone who thinks Pistolero was a piece of cake should just look at the notes Nutri included with the zip file -- all his own demo's, all compiled, listed, converted, cut and edited by himself.

For the most part, I STILL think that anyone who claims that one took more work than the other, or that one is somehow more valid when it comes to "skill," is just being overdefensive and biased.

RP, don't get me wrong: Nutri and I are MSN buddies. I advised him a little on his latest vid. I even suggested/sent him the Pistolero song by Juno Reactor, so if any of you think that music's really ghey, you can blame me. They're my MP3s.

I'm not trying to get into a flame war. I like Nutri alot, he's got mucho skill (enough to beat one of DSBR's strongest teams recently with his own clan, if I recall correctly). And it bugs me to see his talents downplayed on these forums, after he puts all this work into a "just for fun" video. I think people need to chill and stop clamoring for jealous rivalry between the video authors. Stop being so edgy, it's pathetic. Better to keep that in the game, not let it defile some really amusing vids.

Last edited by Moradivh; 02-03-2003 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 02-03-2003, 02:53 AM   #44
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dont bother arguing with rp. he's one of those saber rpg n00bs that argued with the entire twl community in the /kill thread. he was the one that thought that /kill was a bug that needed to be removed and he kept asking raven to patch it out. he's also probably one of those idiots that kept asking raven to make new patches to get rid of the backstab in .03 and the 'unfair force powers' and dfa in 02. in short he's the type of person that ruins games cause he sucks and cant do what other people do. so his logic is to ask to have things removed because he doesnt have the common sense to adapt. i swear some of you people really need to grow up. you keep posting about 'honor' and 'exploits' when all you're really saying is "i cant beat this person or learn this move and i'm too lazy to even try so why dont i ask the developers to remove that technique and thus force the rest of the community down to my level." just so you know there is no such thing as 'honor' in a world of anonymity and if you cant realize this then well i feel really sorry for you because you are constantly going to be worried about something so idiotic and mundane the internet.

OH NO I JUST POSTED SOMETHING THAT MIGHT HURT SOMEONE ELSE'S FEELINGS I HAVE NO HONOR I'M GONNA GO CRY NOW AND BEG THE GOD OF INTERNET CHAT TO FORGIVE ME!!

ok now that that has been said. det is right. there are no such things as cheats or exploits. the reason is because there are always 2 sides of the argument but which side can prove his opinion is actually true? one side will say that xbug was intentionally left in the game so it is not an exploit and it is part of the system. the other will say that the gamedevs left it in on accident so use of xbug is an exploit and it should be banned. now which side is correct? the answer is neither because someone claiming that they can read someone else's mind over the internet is just plain stupid. however the person who is arguing that xbug was intentionally left in the game at least has some solid proof i.e. that the 'bug' IS IN THE GAME. whereas the person that says that the bug is unintentional has no proof whatsoever and is simply making an assumption based on a biased opinion. therefore the person who is arguing for the use of the 'bugs' or 'exploits' is MORE RIGHT but not completely right because he at least has some sort of evidence to support his claims. so by this argument wallgliding, strafejumping, and /kill are not exploits or bugs, and since they are part of the system they will continue to be used.

some people take this game way too seriously. they need to calm down and realize that this is simply a game and not a way of life.


I will be the strongest
~Shinomori Aoshi
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Old 02-03-2003, 03:49 AM   #45
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It seems the community is split into two seperate entities because saying that the people in TWL are the most l337 players in JKO is a biased opinion most of what Ive seen and heard about the TWL community is CTF and all those wall floats,and strafe jumping/speed stuff. But on the other hand calling someone a saber RPG n00b is uncalled for as those "saber RPGs' may not attend to your liking but I run an RPG club for JKO and we like to roleplay in JKO,but when it comes down to it and its WoW time for my Clan I kick arse in NF Sabe which im sure many of those TWLers would lose to the extreme good NF sabers Clans/players. there are many diff gametypes in JKO to say that one person is the most leet is fictatious as there is no way he can be the best in CTF, FF gunz,NF guns,CTF,Jedi Master,Hydroball,duel,captue the holocrons and many more its impossible. And JKO was built wrong anyways JK was so much better JKO is a multiplayer game where you can be a jedi with a gun and that my friends is Wrong according to the Star Wars realm which George Lucas built and go ahead and clown the SW realm cause you are simply wasting your time discussing a SW game that YOU play to totally contradict yourselves I dare ya to flame! JKO is a Game tho as previously said so however you play that game is good as long as you get your 49.99 worth then lucasarts achieved their goal....and the word n00b is so misused these days without newbs none of you l337 peeps would exist who else would you get kills off of? All said and done you have ruined this thread about a simple task to post a cool JKO vid you made everyone get all mad and turned it into a mass argueing fest. Go to your room all of You! and No TV for a week!
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Old 02-03-2003, 04:21 AM   #46
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Actually there is one exploit, which gives players an insanely unfair advantage, most of the good players are aware of it.

However you have to be aware of its existance to actually notice it being used, its kinda hard to see.
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Old 02-03-2003, 04:28 AM   #47
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yawspeed? lol
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Old 02-03-2003, 05:04 AM   #48
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well i've never minded the 'saber rpg n00bs' at all as long as they dont try to tell me how to play my own game. i could care less about backstab and all that other stuff, but when they go and complain about something that pertains to the game I play and they dont (i mean who the hell suicides in a saber only ffa or a duel or who would wallglide, strafejump, ect??) then i get annoyed. i just say to let people play their game and you play yours. i never complained about people backstabbing me because .... IT NEVER HAPPENED. even in .03 it hardly ever happened and when it did i didnt really care. i just got pissed cause i let myself be killed in such an idiotic way. so the people that complain about 'exploits' like wallgliding dont even play a gametype where wallglide would be relevant. they just whine and complain about something that doesnt even matter to them. i could also understand if the 'exploits' even somewhat pertained to them but they dont. i mean if someone /kills in a ffa then who cares? they just lost a point. perhaps it denied you of yours but just get over it and accuse him of being a lamer. then when he's typing a response, kill him and there you go you got your 1 point back. people just need to quit complaining and adapt to things because everytime they've complained they've perhaps made themselves happy but made hundreds of others pissed... selfish bastards =)

oh and about the videos. i liked nut's better. more original and had really nice timing. dsbr's was just like a trick jump vid and a shots vid combined into 1. dont get me wrong i'm not criticizing it i'm just saying i liked nut's and star's better.

oh just on a side note. twl isnt just ctf. it's tdm ff, tdm sabers, duel nf, and duel ff. virtually all of the best players compete there.


I will be the strongest
~Shinomori Aoshi

Last edited by Aoshi; 02-03-2003 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 02-03-2003, 05:11 AM   #49
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where is the thread for stars? never seen that one
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Old 02-03-2003, 05:46 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Actually there is one exploit, which gives players an insanely unfair advantage, most of the good players are aware of it.

However you have to be aware of its existance to actually notice it being used, its kinda hard to see.
well that exploit is just for n00bs that cant aim in the first place and need to use that trick to actually hit anything. i dont really mind it because i can outrun those things anyways even when i'm not using speed and they travel far too slow to hit me when i'm capping.

ronin just go search on own-age.com in the jk2 movies section. it's called "demolitionist"


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Old 02-03-2003, 07:11 AM   #51
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Personally I'm sick and tired of logging on a Full Force All Weapons FFA and constantly hearing people whine:

"LAMER! U pushed me! U kicked me! Lightning wh0re! You shot me in the back! You used a big gun! I was unarmed!! You didn't bow! You killed me even though I was only going to run past you with my rocket launcher and chat with my buddy on the other side of the map! Dishonorable scum!"

BUT

Accoring to your theory Aoshi, the reconnecting-bug (I mean: "feature") is also a part of the game and should not be whined about. Exploits do exists. Bugs do exist.

There are a lot of things in JO that should have been done better. The game is filled with screw-ups. People are just so immature that they feel stuff like the reconnecting bug are OK simply because it allows them to WIN, OWN or whatever.

1.03 was horrible. Sabers did 0 damage. The only viable tactic was to press you BUTT in the opponents FACE and execute a ridiculous backstab (with the help of yawspeed) which was a one hit kill.

Everyone must understand that Raven screwed up with 1.03. The game had become ludicrous.

But here's my point: WINNING OR LOSING ONLINE SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR WHEN CONSIDERING IF A GAME IS FAULTY OR NOT.

I can not play saber only 1.04. It is simply too boring. The saber is useless. Kick-kick-kick. Kick.
Too bad I suck with guns

Ps. By "The Exploit" do you mean homing missiles?


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I r0xx0r all j00 nooberz that mess with me. You nooberz suXor out of my way or I eat j00....

Most ridiculous Quote of the century: >)O(< ENmiTy: promoting mindless FFA and SD kills promotes disorderly conduct amoung the online community.
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Old 02-03-2003, 07:32 AM   #52
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Wall-Gliding may be a bug which can be "exploited", but it requires skill to use. A true exploit is one which gives a skill-less player a rediculous advantage, aka the rocket bug. Yes, it can be outrun, but its moving twice as fast as the regular homing shot and its twice as agile (the think method of the rocket is called twice as often), plus you don't even have to be facing in your target's direction when you fire. You can run away from them and fire, and it'll STILL hit them.
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Old 02-03-2003, 09:00 AM   #53
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I SAW SOMEONE CHEATING IN A SERVER RP! GO POLICE IT AND SHOW THEM UP!!!
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Old 02-03-2003, 09:11 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Personally I'm sick and tired of logging on a Full Force All Weapons FFA and constantly hearing people whine:

"LAMER! U pushed me! U kicked me! Lightning wh0re! You shot me in the back! You used a big gun! I was unarmed!! You didn't bow! You killed me even though I was only going to run past you with my rocket launcher and chat with my buddy on the other side of the map! Dishonorable scum!"

BUT

Accoring to your theory Aoshi, the reconnecting-bug (I mean: "feature") is also a part of the game and should not be whined about. Exploits do exists. Bugs do exist.

There are a lot of things in JO that should have been done better. The game is filled with screw-ups. People are just so immature that they feel stuff like the reconnecting bug are OK simply because it allows them to WIN, OWN or whatever.

1.03 was horrible. Sabers did 0 damage. The only viable tactic was to press you BUTT in the opponents FACE and execute a ridiculous backstab (with the help of yawspeed) which was a one hit kill.

Everyone must understand that Raven screwed up with 1.03. The game had become ludicrous.

But here's my point: WINNING OR LOSING ONLINE SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR WHEN CONSIDERING IF A GAME IS FAULTY OR NOT.

I can not play saber only 1.04. It is simply too boring. The saber is useless. Kick-kick-kick. Kick.
Too bad I suck with guns

Ps. By "The Exploit" do you mean homing missiles?
yea but raven has had plenty of time to edit that kinda stuff out and they havent whereas the disconnect bug is new. i dunno i wouldnt want to be a duelist and have to deal with it, but it's not my cup of tea so i never worry about it. the saber damage is what makes .04 ludicrous. i mean for christ sake it's a ****ing sword made of light. how the hell can it only do 30 damage? if raven would have been smart and made the lightsaber at least a normal damage everything would be fine. duelist complain about wanting "movie like duels?" just up the blocking rate when you have your saber out. personally i think 1 stab in the back should = instant kill. maybe then i'd actually use the saber as more than a ****ing shield when i play. i personally am not for or against the disconnect bug. it's an 'exploit' just like everything else but at least the other 'exploits' require skill and dont give someone an overwhelming advantage. i dunno if raven patches it out then good for them. if not then i see more people leaving the game in the near future.

really i just think people need to see this thing for what it is. it's a ****ing game for crying out loud. you cant have 'honor' in a game where you run around killing things.. i mean WTF?? for someone to have 'honor' first they have to exist and be rational. you cant say that ghosts have 'honor' because they are transient. the internet is transient like that too. take for example, i can choose to be male or female young or old anything i like and then i can make multiple personas around whatever type of person i want to be. who's to say that i really act this way or act that way? there's no solid link through the internet to me so me, as a physical being, cannot have 'honor' through the internet. the closest thing that links the internet to me is my i.p address which can also change if i want it to. therefore in the internet i dont 'exist' except as a transient being somewhat like a ghost who can choose to do or be whatever i want. you people need to see this and stop trying to get people to act 'honorably.' if you want 'honor' then set up a server and make the rules there and then enforce those rules. dont go into other people's servers or public servers and try to make others conform to your ideals. that's like walking into someone's house and telling them to act a certain way or like walking into a restaurant and demanding that another patron serve you. if you dont like the way a server is run then get out. im sure they dont like you complaining and taking up their slots just like you dont enjoy their style of play. the moral of this post? just play the damn game and stop bitching.


I will be the strongest
~Shinomori Aoshi
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Old 02-03-2003, 09:36 AM   #55
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haha i didn't even notice the rocket went twice as fast :P theres another huge advantage to the technic that wasn't mentioned as well though ; ) i love that bug hehe
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Old 02-03-2003, 10:01 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moradivh

I'm not trying to get into a flame war. I like Nutri alot, he's got mucho skill (enough to beat one of DSBR's strongest teams recently with his own clan, if I recall correctly)
false. his team beat DSbr's WORST lineup when we had ****ty rusted playing for us. His team of toosexy(fury), ajax(ringer), and faith(nutri) just recently lost to DSbr STARTERS (matt, meta, narbes) in xtgl. considering dsbr doesnt really play jk2 at all anymore as opposed to /2ise playing 24/7, this is quite a good accomplishment.

still the best


aka DSbr.mjz
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Old 02-03-2003, 10:13 AM   #57
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I like /2ise
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Old 02-03-2003, 11:04 AM   #58
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feel the love!
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Old 02-03-2003, 03:35 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
please die or something

Wall-Gliding is a BUG, not an exploit, it has very little actual benefit in a game, except occasionally saving your ass from a fall.

It also makes the game more fun, something which Raven have a lot to learn about, anyone who objects to bugs that make a game mofr enjoyable just has the wrong attitude.

Also note that many of those clips are from waaaay back when JK2 had only just been released.
Also, circle strafe jumping is an exploit, if not cheating. It should be taken out.


Gnaa!
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Old 02-03-2003, 03:38 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZus
I SAW SOMEONE CHEATING IN A SERVER RP! GO POLICE IT AND SHOW THEM UP!!!
COG ALERT!


Gnaa!
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Old 02-03-2003, 04:00 PM   #61
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circle/strafe jumping has been around since the original Quake, how can it be a cheat when its a skill in its own right?

By my definition a cheat is something which gives an unfair advantage, circle/strafe jumping is a skill, any advantage gained is well earnt.
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Old 02-03-2003, 04:19 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
circle/strafe jumping has been around since the original Quake, how can it be a cheat when its a skill in its own right?

By my definition a cheat is something which gives an unfair advantage, circle/strafe jumping is a skill, any advantage gained is well earnt.
It was always considered as bug. Carmack wanted to remove it in q3, but the community didn't agree as far as I know.

( for my previous post) hope this helps you to understand the seriousness of my messages.


Gnaa!
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Old 02-03-2003, 05:04 PM   #63
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Hmm, on a tangent, there are some interesting issues with developer involvement that this thread has raised, primarily by Luc and Det:

Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ:
By my definition a cheat is something which gives an unfair advantage,
In my opinion, that definition doesn't work too well. Because who's to say what's "unfair"? Some people would say that skill gives an unfair advantage. To some, a low ping gives someone an unfair advantage.

My definitions:

Cheating is the alteration of game engine components by recoding of those components, or the addition of external programs, (such as external client hooks) to supply an advantage that one cannot obtain solely from the game software that comes on the game CD.

Bugs are aspects of the game that do not operate as the developers intended. But not all bugs are bad, rocket jumping was a bug, in Quake 1. It spawned whole new dimensions of play, GOOD dimensions.

Exploitation of bugs is using any and all bugs to your advantage in a game. Now, some bug exploits may be dishonourable, e.g. Supergrip in JK1, Invis-model in JO 1.02. But they still aren't cheats.

***

I have never self-killed in CTF. Not because I think it's "cheating" but because I don't like it. It was a personal choice, and while I've never needed it, I've also never ever whined about someone else doing it, because once you force your personal opinions onto others, you're nothing but a childish fascist.

It's up to developers to decide whether to "fix" bugs or not, depending on their evaluation of whether they drastically imbalance the intended gameplay they envisioned. But it's important that developers not alter gameplay at all, in any patches, unless there's a huge, and I mean HUGE imbalance that's obvious to everyone...

For example, Quake's rocket launcher was clearly the most powerful weapon. It was the focus of the game. And the Surge powerups in JK1 were so powerful that they became the focus of all Full Force games.

Some may say that these were imbalances. But they WERE NOT problems. They weren't something that needed to be fixed. There will ALWAYS be moves that convey advantages, there will ALWAYs be weapons more powerful than other weapons. You can never EVER patch a game enough to alter that reality, and if you try, you'll probably ruin it.

Here's an exception, to highlight my distinction between that which needs to be fixed and that which doesn't: The supershield powerup in JK1 conveyed total invulnerability for thirty seconds. It also respawned after thirty seconds if correctly picked up. Since the first person to get to it usually remained invulnerable for 100% of the subsequent game, the SS should have been scrapped.

***

There are ways developers can make games to avoid making the same mistakes as Raven, so this goes out to any established, or budding game-makers out there:

1. Have a really, REALLY good idea of what gameplay dynamic you're aiming for before beta-testing begins. Make sure you don't make any mistakes prior to release, and you won't have to fix them afterwards.

2. Stick to that idea.

3. Fix bugs, not gameplay.

4. Don't assume that the hordes of fans who are e-mailing you with dire predictions for the game's future unless gameplay changes are made, know what the hell they're talking about. Majority does not make right. Be cautious about any decision you make that could have any effect on gameplay.

5. If gameplay changes are ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL, add things to the game. Power up weapons, make powers more devastating, but don't nerf.

6. Wait at least six months post-release before working on a gameplay-altering patch. At least you'll have a better idea of what the game's all about by then.


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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Old 02-03-2003, 06:26 PM   #64
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Might want to read what I said

I said skill...meaning effort...in other words, you can replace the word skill with effort

In games, there normally is no such thing as skill. Clikc a button, get a kill...not really skill. Now, aiming at the right place at the right time and stuff may take some skill, but it takes alot more effort than just shooting area of effect attacks.



Yeah Geezus, I saw that guy. Using invisible saber exploit, of coarse, he got banned


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Old 02-03-2003, 08:21 PM   #65
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Quote:
In games, there normally is no such thing as skill.
So, what's the difference between someone who always finishes at or near the top of scoreboards and someone who always finishes at or near the bottom?
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Old 02-03-2003, 08:30 PM   #66
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You just can't beat Nutri's bouncing bowcaster shots. Those people wanting others to quit voicing their opinions need to crawl back under their beds and continue rotting.


Noob you are. Die you will.
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Old 02-03-2003, 09:02 PM   #67
DeTRiTiC-iQ
 
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Spider, the rocket glitch requires LESS skill to use successfully than the regular homing rocket, as a result I perceive it to be an unfair advantage:

- 1 rocket instead of 2 (can use twice as often)
- rocket moves twice as fast
- maintain the lock even if you look away (like supergrip in JK)
- rocket has twice as much rotation ability
- easy to script it so you use it instead of the regular homing shot every time

As for ping, I alternate between 56k and broadband every few weeks, and I still don't perceive a low ping as an unfair advantage.
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Old 02-03-2003, 09:17 PM   #68
ryudom
 
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heh you missed a big point about that rocket trick det ; )
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Old 02-03-2003, 09:33 PM   #69
dev-Zach
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by InfErnO
It was always considered as bug. Carmack wanted to remove it in q3, but the community didn't agree as far as I know.

( for my previous post) hope this helps you to understand the seriousness of my messages.
actually, it was a bug in the earlier quake series but was INTENTIONALY coded into q3 because quake fans loved it. thus it was intentionaly put in jk2 and is not an exploit.


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Old 02-03-2003, 09:37 PM   #70
dev-Zach
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by RpTheHotrod
In games, there normally is no such thing as skill. Clikc a button, get a kill...not really skill.
lol? how clueless can you get. goplay ra3, an aim dependant game and try to make that statment again.


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Old 02-03-2003, 10:30 PM   #71
Spider AL
A well-spoken villain...
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ:
Spider, the rocket glitch requires LESS skill to use successfully than the regular homing rocket, as a result I perceive it to be an unfair advantage:
Oh, I agree that it's unfair. But just because we both think it's unfair, doesn't make it cheating.

Bug? Yes. But bugs aren't cheats. We have to draw the line somewhere, and when we do, we have to stick to it.

Quote:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ:
As for ping, I alternate between 56k and broadband every few weeks, and I still don't perceive a low ping as an unfair advantage.
You may not think so. I may not think so. But many think so. That is why "things that are unfair" is not a good definition of cheating. Because "unfairness" is not a universal concept. It means different things to different people. I've thought long and hard for the past four years about what makes a cheat a cheat, and the definition I put down above is the closest I've found to a universally acceptable concept.

If it comes unaltered with the game, it's not a cheat. And a bug is a bug, good or bad, only when the developers didn't intend for it to be there.


[FW] Spider AL
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Hewwo, meesa Jar-Jar Binks. Yeah. Excusing me, but me needs to go bust meesa head in with dissa claw-hammer, because yousa have stripped away meesa will to living.
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