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View Poll Results: Does race exist?
Yes, race is based on appearance. 6 25.00%
Yes, race is based on body chemistry/genetics. 6 25.00%
No, race does not exist. 10 41.67%
Other: post what you think. 2 8.33%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Does Race Matter?
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Old 02-08-2003, 06:58 PM   #1
SkinWalker
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Does Race Matter?

And if so, how does one define it?

It's obvious that native Swedes are physically different from native Nigerians. But what about peoples that are closer in appearance? Some sub-Saharan people resemble Middle eastern people.

When looking at animals other than man, we catagorize them as species. The definition of species is a catagory that has the ability to interbreed and produce a fertile off-spring.

Man can interbreed, so therefore we are all one species.

I believe that when you start defining races, you will invariably exclude someone. Do you catagorize based on appearance only or do you look at other factors such as genes. Some people in the world are resistant to diseases that others are not, does this put them in particular races? Fingerprints have characteristics that vary according to geographic region. Some people in different regions have different digestive processes. Lactase, the enzyme that allows digestion of milk is not as common in adults of some regions.

My conclusion is that race, as an idea, has more to do with excluding than including. It's purpose is indicate the dominance of one group of people over another.

I think that basing race on appearance makes no sense. What do you think? Is there such a thing as race?


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Old 02-08-2003, 07:38 PM   #2
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There is a race of humans, ihabitants of earth, and that is all. There are different cultures, certianly, but not species of people.

I watched a show on PBS where a group of men traced the migration of man throughout the world, using some marker that can be found in the x chromosome of the man, or some such thing. The point is, that the origin of man has been traced all thoughout the world in our mere 100 or so generations from Africa, Australia to Aisia to Euorope, Russia, across the land bridge, and down the Americas. Over time our physique and skins, cultures have evolved due to our environment, but everyone everywhere is still a human being, and we're all related.


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Old 02-08-2003, 08:36 PM   #3
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The idea of different races was created to manifest the enemy as something substantially different from you. To make them seem inhuman. To make them into lesser beings than you.

Screw the genes. If a black person looked human, sounded human, smelled human and thought human, but had the genes of a dog - hell, I'd still think of him as human and treat him like one.

As for appearance - there's a reason we look differently. Black people have evolved to a much larger dose of sunlight and it's harmful effects on us. Whereas white people have adapted from a need to utilize the sunlight's role in creating vitamin D. You can't have the best of both worlds, evidenced in the differing races.


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Old 02-08-2003, 08:37 PM   #4
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Thumbs up common knowledge

If it's not already it soon will be commonly known that we all are 1 race, each different color represents time spent apart by different groups of 1 race. Dark humans in Africa lightened as they moved north into colder climates. Groups of people that spend a long time in weak sunlight and or their bodies covered by clothes lighten to absorb more sunlight for the production of vitamin K. Skin color has less to do with race than with climate and geographic location. The closer to the equator the darker your ancestors will be.

You see the human body needs vitamin K that is produced by sunlight absorbed into the skin. But too much sunlight destroys folic acid, this is extremely important for pregnant females to avoid birthdefects. So skin color is a never ending adjustment to the absorbtion of sunlight.

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Old 02-09-2003, 09:53 PM   #5
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I think there are different races within the same species. My dogs breed is King Charles Cavalier Spaniel and come in three varieties, Blenheim, Tri-colour and Ruby.

Te definition of species that I was taught in biology was that a species is a creature that can breed with another of the same species and have fertile offspring".

So if a Blenheim breeds with a Tri-colour they have fertile offspring and may have Blenheim and tri-colour babies in the same litter.

So if people want to call me white, thats ok with me, because my skin is white as I know it.

I should add that white and black people (if I am allowed to say that) have the same amount of cells that create the pigment that makes you darker (if I can say that) but those cells make less pigment for whiter people than for darker people.

If my post offended anyone please speak now.


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Old 02-09-2003, 11:42 PM   #6
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Funclown, by your reasoning, white people and black people would be different "breeds" of human, but still both human. If they were different species, they could not have children together.


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Old 02-10-2003, 02:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShockV1.89
Funclown, by your reasoning, white people and black people would be different "breeds" of human, but still both human. If they were different species, they could not have children together.
Actually, he's saying that people are the same species, but exist in different races. Much the same way that there are different races of warbler (a small bird). They can be differentiated by their throat color. The myrtle and Audubon warblers can, and do, interbreed with fertile offspring.

I don't know if the warblers realize that they are "myrtle" and "Audobon," however. This catagorization is a human one.

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Old 02-10-2003, 06:58 AM   #8
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Yeah, SkinWalker knows what I mean.

But in the end, we are all the same inside, just like my dogs and the birds. The differences are only skin deep so to speak. But if they weren't there, then there would be no speaking of the subject either.


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Old 02-10-2003, 02:15 PM   #9
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In taxonomic classification system, the smallest classification is species, and all that requires is for animals in the same genus to be able to mate and produce offspring.

All humans are in the sapien species, and any differences after that aren't classifiable with the taxonomic system. So, the differences are minor, and mostly insignificant.

Having different races is really unnecessary. Just like having a Maine Coon cat and a Siamese cat, they are both cats. But, they are different, justifying the different names for them. Just some minor differences, but enough so that they need different names to distinguish between the two.

The same thing goes for humans. Having different races is to distinguish different humans from each other. Just as having names for hair color, because even though hair is basically the same, there are minor differences between all humans hair.

So yes, I reckon having different races is necessary.
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Old 02-10-2003, 06:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
The idea of different races was created to manifest the enemy as something substantially different from you. To make them seem inhuman. To make them into lesser beings than you
I was going to say the same thing. Sure, there are differances in culture, but when it comes to anatomy, and thinking capability, we're all human. We all have the same needs, and most of us have the same wants.




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Old 02-14-2003, 09:59 AM   #11
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Quote:
I was going to say the same thing. Sure, there are differances in culture, but when it comes to anatomy, and thinking capability, we're all human. We all have the same needs, and most of us have the same wants.
I agree. I don't really want to get the Iraq debate going, but I think people should understand that the people who will be getting bombed are just like us.

I've known three Iraqians and they are very nice people and I mean genuinely nice. They are smart, intelligent people who just aren't a number. One hundred thousand died in the 1990-1991 Gulf War and have heard Americans laugh at them. I realize they did invade, but have some pity, most were conscripted and surrended at first sign of combat.


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Old 02-23-2003, 09:06 PM   #12
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there are different nationalities, but i dont care about that, im
50% Brittish
50% Lebenese
and i live in america, but it doesnt matter to me what race you are.
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Old 02-24-2003, 09:45 AM   #13
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Thumbs up Thanks

Thanks to everyone who posted here, special thanks to Skinwalker for starting it.

I think these ideas will be very important steps to ending misery for the human race. ( I know we have a long way to go ).

Once the majority of humans on planet Earth feel this way it will be the begining of a new age.

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Old 02-24-2003, 02:39 PM   #14
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Well I've read all the posts here and they are all very good. I agree with C'jais (wow ) when he said

Quote:
The idea of different races was created to manifest the enemy as something substantially different from you. To make them seem inhuman. To make them into lesser beings than you
Perfect. Once a group starts thinking that they're better or "more human" than another group, arrogance and hate ensue. Good job C'jais for pinpointing that!

We are all one species. We are not different races. Take cats for an example. Now I know people say cats have different races and such and I agree but think about it this way. Take a race of cat (just 1) and look at it. Some are different colors, some have bigger eyes, bigger noses, longer claws etc. Does that make them a different race? Nope. And like someone said (can't remember who) Black people came from Africa (in the very beginning). Their dark skin color is only because of the harsh sun they had to deal with. White people (originally from Europe) didn't have that harsh of a sun to deal with, therefor whites do not need the darker skin. Mexicans and Hispanics have a very varied climate (I think so). Harsh summers but cool winters (correct me if I'm wrong here) Therefore they need a darker skin color than whites but a lighter than blacks. We are all one species, but we look different because of situations out of our control.
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Old 02-24-2003, 07:07 PM   #15
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There are more differences then just skin color. Bone structure, hair texture and color, and maybe some genetic differences. But hey, if you wanna say there is no difference, go ahead. It's not just about race, wether it's good or bad. It's just acknowledging that there are differences.

To Reborn, Mexicans are not a race. It's a nationality. If anything, they'd be crossbred from mongoloids and caucasoids. I'm pretty sure all those native to the americas are mongoloids that migrated across the bering strait. In theory I suppose. And before that maybe from the fertile crescent, where everyone comes from originally.

Also, to assume that humans have different skin color to adapt to their climate also assumes that this is an evolved trait. If in reality all humans are the same. So at one time they were the same, then they evolved. Sounds like evolution to me. I think you're turning to the darkside Reborn.
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Old 02-24-2003, 11:54 PM   #16
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I think that the thing about differences in different peoples, is where does one draw the line when determing "race." It's easy to see the physical differences in people: skin color, hair color, nose size, stature, etc. Most of these traits are hereditary and many to the point that they are advantageous to one environment or another.

I think that the real description of race throughout history depends upon who controls the resources. With the advent of agriculture, there suddenly was a need to irrigate land, provide farm implements, provide a myriad of services.... and thus society was stratified. In a stratified society, you end up with one class dominating the resources and wealth, and other classes doing the work.

Those in power can't afford to admit that the lower classes are their equals.

Of course, there are always those cultures that are encountered that are alien to one's own. I would imagine that race wouldn't be an issue until it came to a point that these cultures imigrated to one's own or, perhaps, one wished to control the resources of the alien culture.

Even today, many Asian cultures consider other Asian cultures as individual "races." The "Japanese" race, "Korean" race, "Chinese" race, etc. There still exists "racism" between Japanese and Chinese people, though not nearly to the degree of several generations ago. Ironically, many occidental (western) people do not make a distinction between these "races."

I agree with just about everything I've read in this thread, and I'm glad you guys feel that way about race. It's good to see that we can agree on something!

I also think that those that bother reading the intellectual threads and participate in reasoned debates where warranted, are true intellects, regardless of personal opinion. It demonstrates that one is willing to think through ideas, evaluate what others believe, know, and understand, and form one's own opinion. The world needs that kind of critical thinking.

I have high regard for you all, regardless of your position on a point.

Well..... there might be one immature person that I find simply amusing... but he didn't post in this thread

Cheers to you all!

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Old 02-25-2003, 12:03 AM   #17
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here's how i see it:

there is only ONE human race. no color, culture, or religon-based races exist. i think that in the future taht there will be 2 DOMINANT races on this earth besides humans. As technology develops, i think that the technology of AI will rise. im not using some weird movie as an example, i SERIOUSLY think this may happen. there will be humans and then there will be the machines. that's my view. kinda weird.
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Old 02-25-2003, 05:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by munik
Sounds like evolution to me. I think you're turning to the darkside Reborn.
Why do you wish to turn this into another debate? I won't be drawn in off topic.
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Old 02-25-2003, 06:18 PM   #19
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Just goading you 'cause it amuses me.

And I'm not turning this into "another debate". If you happened to look at the text underneath Senate Chambers when you clicked through, you may have noticed that debates are what this forum is here for. If you don't like debating, don't post in a forum for debates.
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Old 03-12-2003, 02:36 PM   #20
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Scientific American published this some time ago... I just thought that it would be interesting.

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Old 03-13-2003, 01:41 PM   #21
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Very interesting indeed. My favorite quote from it is: "table sugar may look like salt, but it has more similarities with corn syrup."


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Old 05-09-2003, 10:34 PM   #22
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Are we all the same race?

I posted this already some time ago at GB.com's forums, but I thought I'd want to hear you people's opinions.

Personally, I think we are.

The term "races" derived from a time when we needed to name the people different from us, the same way as we have the terms "tall" and "short". The Africans weren't physically the same as the Europeans, so obviously they were not the same kind of humans.

Today we know that all humans derive from the same two humans (who we may be tempted to call Adam and Eve), whose children would populate the world.

Also, most of the differences we see today are cultural. Soime African Americans may talk in a different way than European Americans, but that's not genetical, is it?

I'll post more after I've heard some other peoples' opinions.

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Old 05-10-2003, 12:02 PM   #23
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I take the idea of Adam and Eve about as seriously as I take the idea of flying pigs.

There are genetic differences in the races of Humans. If there wasn't than we would all look alike. Caucasian, Africans, Asians, Arabs, and Native Americans are all different races. They have genetically different traits that have come about threw evolution.

All these races are related to a single branch of humans homo-sapiens. Homo-sapiens were not the only type of humans. There were many others. All but this one died out. Homo-neanderthalenses for example was our last competitor. As our branch spread across the world it became separated from one another causing localized change. As a hole, however; we are all homo-sapiens so we are related. Kind of like the breads of dogs.

Here is a site I found while I was making sure my statement was correct and how to spell the names.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/hu...ind/index.html


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Old 05-10-2003, 01:00 PM   #24
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Re: Are we all the same race?

Quote:
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle


Today we know that all humans derive from the same two humans (who we may be tempted to call Adam and Eve), whose children would populate the world.

We dont know this.

As for the rest of it... I agree with CJ. Race doesnt exist within the human race. I guess if you wanted to be cold, you could say that "breeds" exist. But so much of what many people perceive as race is a cultural thing. Being "black," I've observed, is more cultural than biological.


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Old 05-10-2003, 01:39 PM   #25
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Heh.. I didn''t mean litteraly that the first two people on Earth were Adam and Eve, don't worry .

Quote:
There are genetic differences in the races of Humans. If there wasn't than we would all look alike. Caucasian, Africans, Asians, Arabs, and Native Americans are all different races. They have genetically different traits that have come about threw evolution.
But there are also genetical differences between, say, blondes and brown-haired people. And different people of the same "race" can have different cultures (the Spanish and Russians are both made up of brown-haired people and blondes, but how many people hit pinatas on their birthdays in Russia)? Still, both Russians and Spanish are reffered to as "whites".

Also, look at the South East Asians. Many of them look totally different. Their eye shapes and size are different, their skin colours are different (some are really brown, some are pale). Still, they are all reffered to as "Asians".

That's one reason why I dislike races: They generalize too much. A Mongolian isn't nearly the same as a Japanese, and being East Russian is different from being English.

I agree with Shock. Most differences are cultural, not racial.

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Old 05-11-2003, 12:16 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
But there are also genetical differences between, say, blondes and brown-haired people. And different people of the same "race" can have different cultures (the Spanish and Russians are both made up of brown-haired people and blondes, but how many people hit pinatas on their birthdays in Russia)? Still, both Russians and Spanish are reffered to as "whites".
Now you are making a mistake scientist made many years ago. Categorizing by external appearance. It's not what's on the outside as much as what's on the inside that counts. No other thing that saying applies to more than in classifing a organism.

There is a big difference in blacks and whites for example. Blacks are born with high amount of melanin in there skin. Caucasians only develop this threw tanning. Blacks are already tanned do to there environment the developed in. It is a genetic superiority to whites. Africans still get sun burned, but are much less likely than say someone from Scandinavia. Also Africans tend to be taller than Caucasians, because a taller more slender frame dissipates heat more easily than say a short stalky frame. Eskimos aren't very tall ever wonder why? Africans also suffer more commonly from cycle cell anemia which is a adaptation to malaria.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
That's one reason why I dislike races: They generalize too much. A Mongolian isn't nearly the same as a Japanese, and being East Russian is different from being English.
Liking or disliking something that is a fact doesn't make it a yes or a no it's still a fact. "Dagobahn Eagle" Not trying to be rude or anything, but you seem to have the attitude "if you don't like something you can just get rid of anything that suports that idea." The world is a far more complex place than that. Denying something, becouse you don't like the idea isn't going to change anything.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
I agree with Shock. Most differences are cultural, not racial.
If that were true than a white couple would have just as much a chance of giving birth to e a black baby as a black couple giving birth to a white baby. There are different races in the human species. Some people like to say human race. They are afraid separating humanity promotes racism. Each race has attributes that give them an edge on the others, because of the environment they developed in. That's why there is difference. The differences shouldn't be frowned on, but excepted as a common treat of humanity. Each race is special.

Kingdom = Amimals
Phylum = Chordata
Class = Mamilia
Order = Primate
Family = Hominidae
Genus = Homo
Species = Homo-sapians or modern humans
A species can further be broken down, but isn't normally in humans, because of the stigma of racism. Saying we are all the same race is like saying all animals are the same. Coral and birds are both animals, but are not the same.


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Old 05-11-2003, 12:42 AM   #27
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Quote:
It is a genetic superiority to whites.
It in no way makes "blacks" superior to "whites", as "blacks" are more likely to suffer damage caused by cold, such as frostbite.

See? It evens out.

Quote:
If that were true than a white couple would have just as much a chance of giving birth to e a black baby as a black couple giving birth to a white baby.
That's not what I meant.
I meant differences such as language, dialects, eating habits, attitude, etc. Norwegians don't exactly have a gene that makes us like hiking, it's just a society thing.

And have you ever noticed how some (not all) dark people talk differently than others, saying stuff like "you know whut I mean", or "my African brother", or "my white cousin", calling people "foos", and the likes? Some people say this make dark-skinned people unique and thus a different race. My questions are:

1. What about a dark person who doesn't talk that way? Is he or she still to be considered dark?

2. What about a Chinese who was raised by Nigerians and talks that way? Is she Asian or African?

See? It's society.

CJ, you appear to think that because we've got different appearances and traits, we're different races. But not everyone from the same "race" have the same traits.

For example, people in mountainous regions have generally bigger lungs than people from low-land regions. So a Russia from a high-raising mountain peak near Siberia probably has bigger lungs than a Dane from Jutland (not enough to make a big difference, but it makes breathing slightly less laboured in mountain regions). They're still the same race, aren't they? We don't say the "Scandinavian race" and the "Russian race".

Quote:
There are different races in the human species. Some people like to say human race. They are afraid separating humanity promotes racism.
Partly that, but also because we seriously believe it as a fact.

Darwin might have said creation by God didn't exist partly because he was afraid of going to Hell, but it sure wasn't the main reason why he said so. The main reason was he found fossils and such and developed a theory based on that evidence.

Quote:
Saying we are all the same race is like saying all animals are the same. Coral and birds are both animals, but are not the same.
But that's different species, not different breeds/races. I'm not a different species from that Chinese-American girl down the road.
I know what you mean, friend, but you're not using the right analogy here.

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Old 05-11-2003, 12:52 AM   #28
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I can add a decent amount of opinions with this link.

Even though the question asked in each poll is a little different, they both inevitably lead to the same discussion. Could've just clicked reply.
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Old 05-11-2003, 10:59 AM   #29
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It in no way makes "blacks" superior to "whites", as "blacks" are more likely to suffer damage caused by cold, such as frostbite.

See? It evens out.
Yes and I also stated that it evens out in my post. Just not so exactly.
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Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
1. What about a dark person who doesn't talk that way? Is he or she still to be considered dark?

2. What about a Chinese who was raised by Nigerians and talks that way? Is she Asian or African?
It seems you are confusing culture and race. My culture is how I talk and act. My race is what I am. I'm a mix breed lol though. If you are black you are black just, because you were not raised in the stereotypical culture of that race doesn't make you less of what you are.
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Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
CJ, you appear to think that because we've got different appearances and traits, we're different races. But not everyone from the same "race" have the same traits.
Some people in the race of Caucasians have blue eyes and have black hair as apposed to blond hair. These are all differences in the same race. Not all Caucasians have blue eyes and blond hair. That is a form of subtle variation. I think you need to learn what are the characteristic of a race and the characteristics of the race itself. A Caucasian person can have black hair and brown eyes doesn't make them African or Asian. They are still Caucasian. Eye and hair color are sub traits of a race not necessarily the characteristics of a race. Also race has nothing to do with how you act that is culture. That's the way you were raised to think. Nobody can raise you to be a different race. Each race is genetically different there is no argument here it is a fact. A cheetah acts and even has some of the same characteristics as a dog, but it is still a cat.
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Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
For example, people in mountainous regions have generally bigger lungs than people from low-land regions. So a Russia from a high-raising mountain peak near Siberia probably has bigger lungs than a Dane from Jutland (not enough to make a big difference, but it makes breathing slightly less laboured in mountain regions). They're still the same race, aren't they? We don't say the "Scandinavian race" and the "Russian race".
All you just did was to explain a more obvious and short term form of evolution. People living in higher elevations well develop over time larger lungs to coop with the thinner air. They will do this over a short period of time say a few hundred generations for it to become a obvious trait. Over an even greater amount of time say a few thousand generations these people may become a different race. Over a little more time a different species of homo-sapien. Homo-saipien-mountainous lol

Over a large amount of time each race of man if left uninterrupted would develop into a separate species. Eventually the minor differences that make up the races would be more developed in till we had to many differences compared to similarities to be the same species. Homo-erectus is the common ancestor to homo-sapiens, homo-neanderthalensis, and homo-heidelbergensis.
Just as Homo-sapiens could some day be a common ancestor to future species of humans. The races are the first steps towards thoughs separate species.

There is only a 3% difference in a chimpanzee's DNA to a Human's DNA. Are you a chimp? 3% is a very small difference. So lets include them in this HUMAN RACE as well.

The problem we are having is that you are confusing Nationality, Culture, and Race as the same thing. From what I can tell your talking about actions I'm talking about blood. My nationality is American that is the country I was born and raced in. I was raised in a stereotypical white culture and my race well I'm going to go with Caucasian, because I have too many physically white traits to be considered Native American, but for the most part I'm about a even split 40/60 lol. Your nationality has no effect on your type of culture. As you can be an American and be raised in a Chinese culture. Your culture has no effect on your race. A person can be white and raised in a black culture. They are still white. Culture is mental and race is genetic.

I personaly think we are all are just hairless talking monkeys. Some of us with delusions of grandeur.


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Last edited by Cosmos Jack; 05-11-2003 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 05-11-2003, 02:27 PM   #30
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There is only a 3% difference in a chimpanzee's DNA to a Human's DNA. Are you a chimp? 3% is a very small difference. So lets include them in this HUMAN RACE as well.
Actually, they are different species, not different races, so I don't think I can.

Whites and Blacks are the same species like fundamental religious people and martians are the same species, while humans and gorillas are not the same species.

What I'm saying is more like: Yes, we are different, but no, I don't think we're different enough to be called races.

*Should I delete this thread and bump the one Shock linked to? Opinions?*

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Old 05-11-2003, 02:51 PM   #31
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*Should I delete this thread and bump the one Shock linked to? Opinions?*
Thread merged with Skin's.


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Old 05-11-2003, 07:26 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
What I'm saying is more like: Yes, we are different, but no, I don't think we're different enough to be called races.
We are enough alike to be called the same species, but not enough alike to be the same race. It's simple fact. We are not the same race.

There have never been ONE race of man and as long as there is not some kind of genocide, and all but one race is wiped out. There will always be more than ONE race. There is no way you can say a Caucasian, a African, and a Asian are the same race. There is to many "GENETIC" differences to be called the same race just as there is to many genetic differences for chimpanzees to be the same species as Humans.

The Definition
race1 n. 1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics. 5. Biology. a. A population of organisms differing from others of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits; a subspecies.

If you find a skull of a person in the middle of the woods from a crime scene not only can you tell its sex, but you can tell its race by its shape. Each race has certain characteristics unique to them that makes them too different to be the same race. If we were all the same there would be no blacks, whites, or Asians or whatever. We would all have the same base characteristics and look for the most part the same.

We are all Humans, however; we are not all the same race. Does it really matter only if you're racist. What matters to me is what is in your head. I can fined reasons to hate you for who you are not what you are. I don't need something as petty as race. I have more respect for most other animals than I do a lot of humans.

From what I can tell you think if you take away all the name stamps like African or Caucasian than there won't be racism anymore. Just like you think if you tell people they can't call them selves Nazis than there won't be Nazis anymore. Anyway if it makes you happy for the time being to think all humans are the same race that is your freedom; however; wrong it may be. Freedom of speech it seems. I'm not getting paid to teach human biology, evolution, and race recognition. If only I were that qualified. I would have presented a better argument than I did from more than my own personal knowledge.

It's good to know you're not racist anyway.


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Last edited by Cosmos Jack; 05-11-2003 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 05-11-2003, 11:46 PM   #33
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That merge thing was pretty neat. Made me think I posted in the wrong thread for a second. And if I'm so easily confused with Shock, I think I might take advantage of this opportunity. But that begs the question, will it be for good, or for evil? Stay tuned next week to find out, same Shock time, same Shock channel.
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Old 05-12-2003, 12:03 AM   #34
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There is so many other people to be confused with.


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Old 05-12-2003, 12:16 AM   #35
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