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Old 02-10-2004, 04:48 AM   #1
General Nitro
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new civ

im sure this topic has prolly been covered in someone's layout for SWGB2, but id like to iscolate just this one topic. are there any new civs you'd like to add in addition to the old ones? here are a few suggestions: trandoshans, mandolarions (jango's peeps, not sure how to spell it), hutt cartel, tusken raiders, bounty hunters, etc. the first two would be more tradiotonal, but the last 3 yall prolly think i dum, which it sorta is unless it is used as an unorthadox civ. also, what do y all think of unorthadox civs?


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Old 02-10-2004, 08:21 AM   #2
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Well, in my template, i have the-
- Confederacy
- Empire
- Republic
- Hutt Cartel
- Rebels
- Naboo (Royal Naboo + Gungans)
- Federation
- Wookiees

Plus, as i bonus, the Yyuzhan Vong (or however you spell them)


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Old 02-10-2004, 04:33 PM   #3
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Yuuzhan Vong

I don't think Trandoshans would work too well...

And I'm kinda wondering about the Hutt Cartel.

As long as SWGB2 is 3D, I'll be happy with it. (Even though I wouldn't mind the Yuuzhan Vong civ)
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Old 02-11-2004, 01:24 AM   #4
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The less the merrier (although not too few to stifle variety)


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Old 02-11-2004, 01:47 AM   #5
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i highly doubt there will be any new civs for a new game. new units, definately. but no new civs.



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Old 02-11-2004, 04:19 AM   #6
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Yep, this has been discussed billions of times before, but what the hey. There should be no new civs (unless there is a major civ in Episode III) because the existing civs were the only ones worth bothering about in the major wars of the galaxy (ie those in the films). The Wookiees are added in to make even numbers and because everyone loves Chewie.


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Old 02-15-2004, 09:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sithmaster_821
The less the merrier (although not too few to stifle variety)
Now we're talking

Mandalorians are gone since quite a time (I think) so we probably won't see them in SWGB 2

Just to comment again on Windu's list, I'd get the Hutts out (c'mon guys, nobody wants to play as fat worms) and the TF should be part of the confeds.

And I'll say it again, 4 civs is the way to go (maybe 5, but due to LA's incapacity to correctly develope completely unique sides, I'd stay with 4)


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Old 02-16-2004, 12:39 AM   #8
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Darth54 - with the Hutts, you dont actually play as a Hutt, you use their minions. That means using things like Weequey infantry, Rodian sniper's etc. There are no Hutt combat units.

With the Trade Federation, there was quite a stink when i suggested that myself a little while back, and i have to say that i was wrong. The Federation, although for all intents and purposes is part of the Confederacy, is a unique civ. Besides, the TF as a seperate civ is necessary for Ep1 senario's/campaign's.


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Old 02-16-2004, 06:35 PM   #9
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Old 02-16-2004, 07:04 PM   #10
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The Trade Federation are not part of the Confederacy, and in fact they may never properly be. They are allies just like the Gungans and the Naboo.

My evidence is Nute Gunray's line from Attack of the Clones:
"What about the Senator from Naboo? I'm not signing anything until I have her head on my desk."

So he wasn't a proper memeber of the Confederacy then and since Padme won't die until the end of Episode III by which time the Confederacy will probably be defeated, he may never join the Confederacy. Now it is possible that he backs down from this, but I believe Gunray would be very stubborn. The Trade Federation has the strongest army of all the Confederacy's members, so Gunray knows his involvement is desired. He would use that desire to get what he wants (Padme dead).

This may also explain why we see none of the Federation's tanks or fighters in the Battle of Geonosis. Gunray might have had some Droidekas for protection in the arena, but their weren't any of them in the big battle either. To this end it's possible none of the Battle Droids in the battle belonged to the Trade Federation. The Federation starships retreated quite possibly with their armies still on board while the Confederate army protected their escape.

Windu: Good to see you can admit you are wrong sometimes.


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Old 02-17-2004, 12:24 AM   #11
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Vostok - well, it seems that every game i have seen produced by Lucasarts about the Clone Wars disagree with you. In things like 'Jedi Starfighter' and 'The Clone Wars' the TF is part of the Confederacy - Lucas even said that the TF fighter was supposed to be the main Confed fighter until he came up with the idea of the Geonosian fighter.

You also have to look at it this way. Gunray has been involved in the capture and attempted murder of a Republican Senator and two Jedi. When the galaxy is polarised into two seperate camps, the Republic and Confederacy, who do you think they would join? It also makes sense in that the TF isnt exactly happy under the Republic either.


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Old 02-17-2004, 01:40 AM   #12
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Does it really matter here? We need our separate TF civ for the sake of Ep.1

It's gonna suck if we see super battle droids marching down on grassy plains while the hailfire droids are bombarding the gungan shields...


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Old 02-18-2004, 07:05 PM   #13
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Windu, I think you may be getting confused between "Separatists" and "Confederacy of Independent Systems". Throughout Attack of the Clones, Dooku and his allies are referred to as "Seperatists" and not as the Confederacy. The Trade Federation is undoubtedly a part of the Separatists, since they have separated from the Republic. The Confederacy was formed during the meeting Obi-Wan was spying on, and the Trade Federation is not a part of the Confederacy - according to the movies, that is.

I'd be interested to see whether your George Lucas quote specifies Confeds or just Separatists.


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Old 02-19-2004, 02:44 AM   #14
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Vostok - you have to remember though that 'Confederacy' (as opposed to Coalition, Alliance etc) is a loose association of members. Take the Confederacy from the US Civil war for example. Each state had it's own army/armies which operated independatly of each other, but were co-ordinated by a Confederate General.

As for the Droid Starfighter, i was slightly wrong, i dont know if it was Lucas himself or not but you can be pretty sure it was. Anyway, the 'quote' is here-

"Initially, the droid starfighter seen in Episode I was to be the primary air defense for the Separatists, but it was decided instead to give the Geonosians their own fighter craft."


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Old 02-19-2004, 06:03 AM   #15
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That's a nice point about the word "Confederacy", Windu, but in Star Wars the Confederacy of Independent Systems refers to those Separatists that signed Dooku's treaty. The Trade Federation as far as we know are not signatory to it.

That quote really just proves my point, because they used the term Separatists (which the Trade Federation are part of) and not Confederacy (which the Trade Federation are not part of).


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Old 02-19-2004, 09:06 AM   #16
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I really dont see the difference between the Confederacy and Seperatists, but still as luke said it really doesnt matter. All we know for sure is that the TF fights on the side of the CIS.

PS: does anyone know if there were AAT's in the 'deleted tank scene' in Ep2?


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Old 02-19-2004, 08:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darth Windu
PS: does anyone know if there were AAT's in the 'deleted tank scene' in Ep2?
Nope there was none. Only SWGB's Confederacy Assault Mech and Republic Speeder Bikes.


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Old 02-21-2004, 02:07 PM   #18
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how do u know about the tank scene? is it on the net?


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Old 02-21-2004, 03:49 PM   #19
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I dunno, can't remember but you can't see it though. Perhaps it's on the ep2 DVD.


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Old 02-22-2004, 02:30 AM   #20
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Unfortunately no, it isnt on the DVD. I think that the tank scene, like the Droid Ship Raid scene, was included in the first screenings for critics etc but was later taken out.

I would love to see it put back into the film, but at the moment, i class the Jedi Hanger as the coolest Ep2 deleted scene.


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Old 02-22-2004, 06:09 PM   #21
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The Confederacy Assault Mech and Republic Speeder Bikes mentioned by Luke's Dad can be seen on the AotC DVD. I think they're shown at some point in the feature about visual effects, possibly during the closing credits. They're unsophisticated cgi, not properly completed. I think this is as far as they got, they were never actually completed for the film.

The Republic Speeder Bike bit is especially cool, it get's my vote for coolest deleted bit. You see a couple of Clone Troopers on speeder bikes zoom through the legs of a Homing Spider Droid, then they throw a grenade which sticks to the underbelly of the walker, which of course blows it up. I liked the idea so much that in my SWGB2 Design I gave my Clone Bikers grenades that are good against Mechs.


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Old 02-23-2004, 05:48 AM   #22
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Really? I never saw it - must hire it out again and look. Anyhow, from what i know of it, it seemed pretty cool and would have been great to see in the film, i even have a Hasbro Clone Trooper on Speeder Bike figure.

I too have the Republic Speeder Bike Clone's having grenades which are effective against Mechs in my SWGB2 template.


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Old 02-26-2004, 09:52 PM   #23
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Ok, people, I have been thinking about this for a while, and I have decided against the version of SWGB2 that my template showed, in favor of a new idea. Its not drastically different, but it contradicts some statements I have made in the past. I'll leave you guys in suspense until I can get my lazy butt into making a separate thread. Probably will be later today or tommorrow.


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Old 02-27-2004, 06:41 AM   #24
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Oooh, very intriguing Sith.

Windu, let me get this straight... you own a Hasbro Clone Trooper on Speederbike but not the Episode II DVD? You need your priorities sorted!


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Old 02-27-2004, 07:18 AM   #25
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I have the AotC VHS, i'm going to get the AotC DVD later if they bring out a set including all of the films in special edition on DVD (probably wishful thinking but hey...)


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Old 03-01-2004, 04:38 PM   #26
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Oh well that's alright then. Please ignore my comment.


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Old 03-02-2004, 09:47 AM   #27
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I SAW IT! I hired out the Ep2 DVD and saw the speeder bike scene. It's in the doco 'pre-visualisation of Ep2' on the 2nd disc.

PS: i've replaced the Geonosian Cannon with the Corporate Alliance Tanbk Droid in my SWGB2 template.


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Old 03-02-2004, 11:15 PM   #28
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I just saw some of the earlier posts concerning the TF and the Confeds, and I'd like to highlight the fact that I have switched sides. I know that in the past, I have been a virulent supporter of having the civs separate, but, because, in thinking about it I decided that the best course of action was to combine the two groups under the name separatists. This is not for any of the reasons that Windu has or likely will have, but because I felt that even my scarce 7 civs were too much to ensure true variety in the civs, and could also hamper balancing adjustments and the like. Also, the combination of civs gives a game designer the ability to field a wider variety of units, so that civs don't run inot the problem of not having the redundant counter (having two counters for every unit, typically one soft, one hard, or one early game, one late game, is the best idea (see AoM's norse for reasons), and, equally important, allows the designer to be more faithful to the movies (no gungan air, tf seige, etc.). The reduced civ number also helps in CPU usage, and allows the civs to be truly unique (the tf and the confeds kept stepnig on each other's toes in terms of features, units, and bonuses). I am trying to decide between 4 civs (Rebs, Reps, Imps, Seps), or the addition of a 5th combined Naboo civ (I have a really good idea on how to make this work and be VERY unique, but I'm still balancing it in my head, unlike certain people when they post their topics, who only concenr themsleves with correctness realistically). I have a couple of other ideas, even units, but I don't plan to make a second template (too much work). Not that it matters, a lot of it is lifted straight from my original templates.


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Old 03-03-2004, 09:03 AM   #29
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LOL, so finally, after bashing my idea's regarding the combining of the TF and Confederacy, and then the Royal Naboo and Gungans, Sith has admitted that he was wrong and that my idea had merit. Amusing indeed...


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Old 03-03-2004, 10:01 PM   #30
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This is how I would like to see the civilizations set up:

Rebel Alliance
Galactic Empire
Galactic Republic
Royal Naboo
Trade Federation
Confederacy
Wookies
Gungans

With the option in the option menu where you combine two civilizations on certain maps such as Wookies and Rebels or Naboo and Gungans or Trade Federation and Confederacy.


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Old 03-04-2004, 01:42 AM   #31
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No, Windu, your ideas have less merit in my mind now, because, although we agree that the Naboo/gungans and Confeds/TF should be merged, I disagree with your reasoning even more. In fact, I've moved further from where you are coming from than I was before. I actually have been moving closer to Darth54 ideologically, although Blizzard games still suck. I don't think you read my post, or that all went buzzing right over your head. The TF aren't so much as merged with the Confeds as dropped entirely, with a handful of their units/bonuses going into confed hands, and, as for the naboo and the gungans, i wouldnt say they are exactly merged. More later, still balancing.


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Old 03-04-2004, 05:54 AM   #32
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Sith - so the Naboo and Gungans will be merged, but not really merged? That makes sense...

Also, i thought we already had the discussion about the TF being essential as a seperate civ so that players can play out Ep1 senario's...


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Old 03-04-2004, 02:08 PM   #33
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Add a handful of units for the particular scenario without creating a new civ completely. It's quite doable.

Although I still want my separate civs I'm through arguing.


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Old 03-05-2004, 03:23 PM   #34
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I'd prefer separate civs, because I think the Trade Federation has a very different way of waging war than the Confederacy. The Federation sits back and bombards then slowly advances. The Confederacy swarms quickly and overwhelms. However, if they were to be combined I should hope they abide by these criteria:

They MUST be called Separatists, not the Confederacy.
It must be possible for the civ to play a Battle of Naboo campaign. By this I mean the following: in many RTS campaigns, you start out the campaign without the full compliment of units. The Separatists civ should do the same in that during the Battle of Naboo part of the campaign, you don't have access to all the units, only those associated with the Trade Federation.
They should have two different Workers, a PK droid and a Geonosian Drone. Not sure how exactly they'd work, but meditate on this I will.

Again I'd prefer separate Naboo civs, but given enough thought they too could be merged. Again my reasoning is that they fight very differently: the Naboo uses speedy elite units to strike hard and fast, the Gungans specialise in defensive actions, they move slowly but purposefully using numbers. In fact I'm most opposed to this merger because their fighting styles are virtually complete opposites. But here's my criteria should they need to be merged:

Their bases must be done in such a way that the wonderful architecture of both civs is present, but not appear like two totally different civs. This might mean that the stone masonry of the Naboo is mostly present while the organic bulbs of the Gungans is reserved for underwater buildings only. Again, meditate on this I will.
It somehow needs to be balanced well, considering each civ has weaknesses. The Royal Naboo have good Air, Jedi and small speedy Mechs. The Gungans have good Sea, Seige and large tough Mechs. This would leave their only weakness being Troops, which I suppose could work.

If I'm motivated enough I might do up my own versions of combined civs just so I satisfy all my own criteria.


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Old 03-05-2004, 05:02 PM   #35
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I find it quite hard to balance out the Naboo/Gungans. Speedy mechs and slow and strong mech? I think one of the two classes should be nerfed down in favor of the other or we'll have the ultimate mech civ here.

Their Air force should also be nerfed down in favor of the better gungan navy or they'll slaughter everyone on island maps(especially the civs who don't have great air and navy).

The infantry also poses quite a problem. We have the Naboo commando-like units and the basic gungan canon-fodder. Unlike a civ like the confed, oh pardon me, the separatists, whose infantry is mainly composed of canon-fodder units, the Naboo/Gungan have both. One of them should be nerfed down.

Remove the Jedi as one of their strength, there was only two of them during the conflict, it barely ressembles a "strength" even if Obi-Wan was one them. Don't nerf them, but turn them into an average Jedi civ meaning their not strong but not weak neither. Makes a bit more sense.

The only thing that I think doesn't really require thougth are the heavies(gungan of course) which seem to mesh well no matter what happens.


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Old 03-06-2004, 12:48 AM   #36
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With the Naboo/Gungans, this is how i developed the combined civ.

Buildings - all land buildings are Royal Naboo, and Sea buildings are Gungan (including shipyard)

Mechs - if you look at Ep1, the Gungan 'mechs' are used for one thing only - infantry support. They provide shield cover and arty support for the Gungan infantry, whereas the Naboo have Light Strike Vehicles. In other words, the Naboo mechs provide the shoot-n-scoot capability while Gungan mechs go with the infantry.

Air - i only gave the Naboo one combat aircraft, the N-1 Fighter. The reason i did this was because if they had a bomber, they would be far too strong consiering their infantry and naval strength.

Navy - the Naboo's strongest point. Various units like Frigates and long-range cruisers as well as one of their more unique units, the Starfighter Carrier. Due to the ability of all Naboo (ie Gungan) ships to submerge, they are very powerful in the water.

Jedi - all Jedi are generic in my template, except for the Republic's Jedi Master

Did i miss anything?


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Old 03-06-2004, 01:32 AM   #37
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Yes, the infantry.


I won't start on your starfighter carrier...


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Old 03-06-2004, 02:51 AM   #38
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Here's my idea. Its still in the works, but here it goes: a Naboo player would, in a normal SP or MP game start off with two tcs-a Gungan one and a Naboo one. To help curb the enormous economic advantage of this, both the worker glurgs and the Naboo citizens train slower than their counterparts (this is justified in real-life by the Naboo/Gungans having the only living villagers, the others are quick to make robots). Gungan workers can only build gungan buildings and naboo citizens can only build naboo buildings. In order to maintain this seperation throughout the game, I stole some ideas from my template. The Naboo and Gungans have free power at each building, but the Gungans must build a sort of water pump near their buildings which eminates this swamp texture that only gungans can build on. The start TC would probably also create this, so that you don't run into problems early on. That way the two sets of buildings would never become co-mingled (which would look stupid). Other than that, both sides have the same bonuses and the like, to maintain a sense of continuity (like the Naboo healing within a certain range of buildings thing from my template).

As for units, the naboo I envisioned having the most of the air and the mechs (no stupid ball shooter on dinosaur mehcs), some of the troopers, the jedi and counter-jedi, and they would be built from either the hangar, the RSF station or the jedi temple. The gungans would have most of the troops, all the heavies (except anti-air), the navy, one air unit, the sheilding, and they would be built from either a militiagung outpost or a creature training center.

Vostok, in my mind, the Confeds don't merge with the TF. The TF is instead dropped and the Confeds just absorb some of their units and bonuses. The TF just become another aspect of the Confeds (who are now called Separatists).


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Old 03-06-2004, 04:01 AM   #39
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Hmmm, they do seem to require a hell of a lot of space management.

The units are fine but I'm quite skeptical about the buildings. They'll require a lot more work then other civ. You have to prepare an area for the Gungan and one for the Naboo which, depending on the actual size of the area affected by the water pump, will require an enormous area compared to the other civ.


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Old 03-06-2004, 08:35 AM   #40
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luke - well, the Starfighter carrier is so that the Naboo can conduct strikes from the sea. This gives the Naboo player more flexability, allows for thwe weakness of no Naboo bomber, and gives opposition players more incentive to destroy the Naboo navy. Also, realistically, it makes sense. After Ep1, the Gungans and Naboo became 'friends' and built the Starfighter Carrier - a mix of Royal Naboo and Gungan technology, and a way to react rapidly to any situation on the planet (remember their core is water)

sith - that seems just like playing as two civs at once. I really do think that the civ, as you have portrayed it, involves too much micro management as opposed to the other civs.


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