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View Poll Results: Which kind of saber blocking is best?
Manual Blocking! It would breathe new life into saber battles, and would make them more skill dependant! 39 41.94%
Automatic Blocking! Make it more streamlined! Blocking manually would bog down the speed of saber combat, who wants that! 24 25.81%
Give the option for Both! Or; Make up a new system (post saber combat system below) 30 32.26%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Saber blocking, manual, or automatic?
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Old 04-06-2003, 05:54 PM   #1
Silent_Thunder
 
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Lightbulb Saber blocking, manual, or automatic?

What kind of saber blocking do you hope will be in JA, or (a real) JKIII?

Automatic, like in Jedi Knight, Mysteries of the Sith, and Jedi Outcast where attacks are automatically parried, or deflected if you're not attacking, but you have little control over it...

Or Manual, the likes of which would be seen in other sword fighting games, where the secondary fire manually blocks an incoming attack?
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Old 04-06-2003, 06:14 PM   #2
Agen
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Well i think, it's fine for SP (keeping auto), but in mp maybe it would be good to press the button rather than the strange block box around you. Also you can only attack when you don't press it, and holding block down might make moving the mouse slower....
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Old 04-06-2003, 06:15 PM   #3
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I think manual blocking would be a very fun idea and would give the system some new light, but it would make all the fights extremely slow. And how exactly do you manually block two sabers or a cheap backstab?


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Old 04-06-2003, 06:24 PM   #4
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Manual would throw a new twist into the game. Playing guns can be frustrating because if they have their saber up, it's hard to break their defenses with a non-explosive gun.


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Old 04-06-2003, 06:27 PM   #5
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In the most basic form of recreation in of the movie battles I see it like this. If I see the enemy swing at me, I hit block, my animation looks like an actual attack, but it ends up meeting the other saber animation midway colliding. Give it quick pause to sell the fact that it was clear and obvious block and then release to pull back to the stance pose.

In JO the blocks were 2 frames of an actuall swing animation that were always close to the body. You need block specific animations not recyled time savers. This is just how I see it of course.
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Old 04-06-2003, 06:59 PM   #6
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This is the way I think manual blocks would work:

You press the secondary fire and you bring your saber up in a block position. The long you hold the block button down the less chance you have of sucessfully blocking the attack, untill you are forced to lower your defences. Therefore, that forces people do use more skill and timing to have more effective blocks -- as opposed to just random blocks.

Since the block button would be right next to the fire button you'd be able to switch between an attack and a block very quickly.

A succesfuly block would make the opponent slightly less capable of blocking your next attack in return -- a succesfuly block would knock the opponent's defences down for a second. That causes 2 person fights to be more up close and personal, since you'd WANT to land a block in order to kill your foe. Evading attacks alltogether -- which is very non movie like -- would not be as practical, so no more jousting.

When two sabers colide, with both fighters doing an attack, and not a block then the saber simply block each other, and no one is penalized.

When a lightsaber wielding person has his saber out, and is hit by another saber, than there is a slight chance the saber will automatically block, provided the saber is close enough to the attempted attack. That would be in defence against attacks going through an ignited saber.

When a single lightsaber wielding opponent is blocking a two lightsaber wielding player, the one with 1 saber would block it in the same manner in which automatic blocking would be.

Anyways, that's the way I would see it working, it would still retain nearly all of the speed of JO (heck, anything is faster than a heavy versus heavy fight), while implementing alot less random deaths, making fights more calculated and strategic.
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Old 04-06-2003, 07:06 PM   #7
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i think manual blocking should be an option in both single player and multiplayer, sort of like auto aim, but in multiplayer it would be a server only option. also i agree w/ Silent_Thunder cuz some ppl could hold block all day and making it the longer holding block = less accuracy seems like a great idea.


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Old 04-06-2003, 07:07 PM   #8
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That's a really good system you have there silent
Hopefully Raven take notice. You mgiht want to add that to the gameplay suggestions too Thunder
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Old 04-06-2003, 07:15 PM   #9
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I think scince a Jedis let the Force flow through them, saber blocking should be automatic, like it comes naturally. though I do think there should be an option to turn it off if you want.


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Old 04-06-2003, 07:15 PM   #10
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Thanks, but it's actually pretty much the way that old PS1 game... Jedi Power Battles (note; I'm not advocating buying it) did it. So the accuracy thing isn't really my idea .
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Old 04-06-2003, 07:21 PM   #11
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Well, an option to turn it off when you want to wouldn't really work... The game would have to be designed with either system, or have them both intergrated in some way.

Also, since all you do is press a block button in my idea, and the blocking system would automatically counter a high, low, side, ect attack than you could still say the "force is flowing through them". Remember old Obi Wan about the force: "(You mean it controls my actions?) Partially, but it also obeys your commands" .
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Old 04-06-2003, 07:38 PM   #12
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Saber blocking should take up force.


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Old 04-06-2003, 07:38 PM   #13
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I think autoblocking could be turned off like autoaiming. though I enjoy my autoblocking so I wouldn't want to turn it off. there's nothing quite like walking into a room full of stormies with your lightsaber out and deflecting every single shot back at them . dance, stormies, dance!


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Old 04-06-2003, 08:03 PM   #14
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If they do include autoblocking again, I really hope they do what CanadianSurfer suggested; having a succesful block use up mana.

There's nothing (In my humble opinion ) more stupid than walking into a room of 100 stormtroopers and easily deflecting every single one of them without breaking a sweat. It was worse in JK1, but it's still pretty bad. I think if there's a loose 'timer' on the amount of time you can block than that would solve that problem, and force players to actually go in and ingage their enemies, instead of just standing there...
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Old 04-06-2003, 08:08 PM   #15
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I'd go for both in multiplayer/singleplayer games, except for manual blocking I'd rather do not tap on the block key, but hold it down instead, the player won't be able to attack while it is held.

Hope they do something like this.


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Old 04-06-2003, 08:23 PM   #16
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In obiwan you could block autoblock some saber attacks, but someone could always just kick you and take health off that way or use a forced charged special saber attack. In order to really open someone up to a full on attack you had to use the force and pull back on the right thumb stick which was the block command, and deflect blaster fire back at shooter command. It worked well and only used up a little bit of force mana.
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Old 04-06-2003, 08:31 PM   #17
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Automatic because you would have to waist time keep blocking manually *damn button where is it* any way back on topic my vote goes to automatic
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Old 04-06-2003, 08:39 PM   #18
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I have yet to see the manual blocking system in place.
I think I'll have to see it and play it before I decide.
Having some people with automatic, and others manual can be a little unbalanced.
But automatic is false, and unrealistic.

I think I may have to opt for manual blocking with alt-fire.
Maybe a meter of power, which eventually 'conks' out after deflecting too much. Allowing you to control the angle too.

Jedi Power Battles had a manual block ability, which worked well.
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Old 04-06-2003, 08:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hkx Nx
Having some people with automatic, and others manual can be a little unbalanced.
But automatic is false, and unrealistic.
I agree. This manual/auto blocking could be simply set on the server side. Heck, if they won't do it, my next mod will support it.



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Old 04-06-2003, 08:55 PM   #20
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i'm just saying alt fire may not work cuz it probably be binded to saber throw like in jo, but then again what do i know. but one thing i don't like about manual block is what Tesla Trooper said about waisting time. not only using another button, but also when fighting a bunch a jedi at once, it may become hard to remember to block manual while trying to evade attacks and attacking.


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Old 04-06-2003, 08:59 PM   #21
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Well, saber throw would be made just a normal force power, like in MotS.

I don't think it would make things THAT much more complicated to remember manual blocking. After awhile it would become like second nature.

And as one of the above posters said; manual blocking worked well in Jedi Power battles.
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Old 04-06-2003, 09:04 PM   #22
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Yes, you'll probably get used to the block key. IMHO its better than "random" defense.



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Old 04-06-2003, 10:10 PM   #23
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If anybody would like to try out Manual Blocking on the right mouse button, feel free to try out my mod...

Details are in this thread:
Movie Battles Thread

Link to the site to download the mod is at the top of the thread.

Although it's still technically a beta, this latest build (Build 7) is looking pretty solid and bug-free so far, so it's very close to a proper release build.

As far as I'm concerned, having a manual block button is a very good thing...

Anyway, feel free to check it out


/* RenegadeOfPhunk */

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Old 04-06-2003, 10:17 PM   #24
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AUTOMATIC,AUTOMATIC,AUTOMATIC!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-06-2003, 10:50 PM   #25
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Screw blocking.

If you are really going to be concentrating on saber to saber combat, then you wouldn't even consider blocking/parrying. Why?

The best duelists do not get touched at all. This goes back to old european dueling

Evasion will always win over a defense.

However, since it it not available... I would say automatic.
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Old 04-06-2003, 10:56 PM   #26
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I will just say in a game like this with a weapon as powerful as a lightsaber (i.e it can cut through things) your gonna concentrate more on trying to chop up your opponent arent't you than waisting time trying to block as i said before (look up thread)
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Old 04-06-2003, 11:03 PM   #27
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I think they should keep it automatic. If it is manual....it becomes too much and it really isn't a game anymore IMO. Too much realism is a bad thing......I think.

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Old 04-06-2003, 11:43 PM   #28
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I think Leemu Taos has a really good point. This is a game, if i really wanted to sword fight i would get a sword, not that i'm saying i think manual is bad or anything (look at prev post for side), but it is a game and sometimes i just wanna have fun and get lazy, and manual blocking does not allow me to be lazy, but then again sometimes i do want a challenge, but what ever raven will do what's best for game play, which ever it is.


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Old 04-06-2003, 11:48 PM   #29
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But it wouldn't be a bad thing having both would it?


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Old 04-07-2003, 12:25 AM   #30
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Well, about the "Its just a game, I don't want to think aspect":

I won't try and tell you what kind of gameplay is best suited for anyone in particular, or what kind of game system is best overall, but if you really just want to sit back and be lazy in a computer game set in the Star Wars universe, then why don't you just play KotoR or SWGs? Where does it become "too much work" or too little?

Anyways, I think most people in favor of automatic blocking misunderstand the logic behind manual. You see, it isn't there to make things harder or more complex for the sake of realisim. We wouldn't be having a discussion about sabers if that were the case.

No, the reason for it is to make the outcome of saber duels less random, and based around calculated, strategic moves. Remember, in multiplayer, you can't just stand around laziliy to win. You have to exhort some kind of effort to win in multiplayer. Why not go the extra step and remove the frusterating randomness of automatic blocking in multiplayer? Surely that would make the game 'easier' in the sense that you spend more time having fun, and less time saying; "WTF I blocked that motherf$@#er!".

Also, don't get me started about the "in real life, evasion is always superior to blocking argument". First of all, these are lightsabers, and our only definition of lightsabers are what we see in the movies. In the movies ATLEAST 90% of the battles between two lightsaber wielding opponents CLASH sabers when they strike. Very rarely will you see a true evasion. Also, in real life, fights are usually won or lost within 20 seconds of its initiation. In Star Wars lightsaber battles can last 5 minutes or more in continous action, sometimes without a victor!

And in real life, blocking attacks (wether with the sword or in martial arts) can be just as, or more effective than evasion. When you block an attack you can either take all their energy that they put into their attack, and use it against them (Yin blocks in Kung Fu [San Soo]) by going *with* their attack; taking their balance, or you can absorb and destroy their ability to inflict damage with a block that is directly putting power against power (Yang blocks). Although evasion in martial arts can be effective you don't really take any of their energy away by evading an attack. It just sets them up for a second attack of the same power (that is unless you take them out before they have a chance).

But in Jedi knight games a manual block would be little more than a player-initiated auto block. Meaning you don't aim the block like a regular strike, or even necissarily time it perfectly. You just simply tell the computer (by pressing the secondary fire key) when you want to block, and the rest is left up to randomness (though much less than pure autoblocking).

Really, in my opinion, manual blocking would not only add a huge dimention to multiplayer (and single player) if done correctly, but it would also make the battles MUCH more like true Star Wars lightsaber battles, and less like jousting contests.
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Old 04-07-2003, 12:36 AM   #31
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On a similar subject, am I the only one that thinks its cazy having saber throw as the secondary fire? I mean, really, we see it done in the movie once, and in an extreemly ineffective manner (sorry Lord Vader!). And all of a sudden 'throwing away' your offence, and defence becomes one of the most damaging moves around! It becomes waaay overused I think. I think it should be used for limited occasions, such as when someone is running away.

Maybe I'll just play with the lightstaff then... atleast they get kicks on secondary fire instead of saber throw.
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Old 04-07-2003, 01:07 AM   #32
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i agree with you that manual block would cause better more intense fights, which would be great. that's why i want both.

i can also see your point as secondary fire being saber throw being not as good as binding something else. actually i am beginning to believe a manual block being on secondary fire being better since it deals w/ saber combat more than saber throw which is more a force power like lightning or choke. if there is a manual i completely agree that it should be secondary, i don't even use saber throw, so w/ manual block there i would have more fun.

looking at my former post, my example about wanting to really fight with a sword and stuff was over the top, i was trying to much to argue auto.

but all in all i believe auto block is like auto aiming. some people want it cuz it makes it easier and they can enjoy the game more and some want it off cuz it is harder and they can enjoy the game more. i really think it should be an option that can be turned off and on. which i would most likely choose manual (still want the option of auto though).

and my comment about its a game and not wanting to think, i'm just saying that if things get to complicated it won't be fun, that all wasn't trying to say your idea was bad or anything. In fact Silent_Thunder your idea of manual block is the same as mine, and hopefully they will put it in like that, but making it the only choice of blocking is kinda unfair to the players who want auto block cuz it is a game that is suppose to fun for everyone. I guess i am afraid that manual block would have to be done in a way that it would require pressing more than one button.

oh yeah just to defend kotor and swg (i won't probably play either) but in my experience rpgs use strategy in fights knowing which action to do (i.e. fight, heal, etc.) so it wouldn't be as lazy as i am (nothing will be that lazy cept maybe garfield).

strange i appear to be on a different side than you, Silent_Thunder, even though my first post was agreeing w/ your thoughts on manual.

oh yeah just so no confusion:
i want manual and auto block.
manual would be fun, as long as it doesn't get complicated
auto should be there for ppl who want it


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Old 04-07-2003, 02:06 AM   #33
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Very nice suggestions there Silent Thunder! IMO the current automatic blocking feels like cheap autoaim.

OK.. here is my idea of blocking system:

- Possibility to choose between auto and manual

- Automatic must be weaker than manual and is designed for all inexperienced padawans out there

- Manual for serious fighters that want to have full control over their saber and thus little better but need pressing secondary fire everytime you want to block

- No attacking while defending

- Move saber throw to force list if using manual blocking


(voted for manual)


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Old 04-07-2003, 02:31 AM   #34
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I think it should be automatic like in JK2 but even more
"automatic..." It should be extended to work also when
attacking (or not really during the attack but during the
move from ready position to attack start position...)

--------------------------------------

And when blocking projectiles:
1. when you do nothing that saber will only stop that
projectile or slash it to some random direction...

2. when you actively slash that projectile it still doesn't
go back to it firer but it goes to that direction where you
are looking (so when you slash it back you can aim it a
little..)

(but when you slash it back there is risk that you slash
too early which will cause that you don't block it at all)

--------------------------------------

And when blocking other saber:
1. when you do nothing that saber will simply stop or
knock that other saber back...

2. when you slash it you may get in to saber "lock" which
is not exactly like that normal total lock but this lock can
happen in many different ways and you can always
backoff from it by releasing that attack button
and retreating...
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Old 04-07-2003, 02:33 AM   #35
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Sorry if I sounded at all hostile in my last post Eastcoast2895 .

I actually kind of agree with you about adding manual and automatic blocking... But it would be hard to build the game around BOTH kinds of fighting, I think. It would really change the gameplay a lot to switch between the two in an option on the fly. Not that it couldn't be done that way, though.

One way they could implement both Auto, and manual blocking is to give auto block for padawan and jedi difficulty, but give manual blocking to jedi knight and jedi master difficulty (provided they use the same difficulty system). That way those who want it a little easier, and just want to have fun and not worry about 'too' complicted saber combat can have it. Those who want to play the game on a harder setting, and want to worry about more intense saber fighting can have it. In multiplayer this could be an option that could be toggled on and off for the host.

Another option would be to make different saber stances have different degrees of auto or manual blocking. For example, let's say they implement all 8 saber stances. Here is how each could work in terms of blocking:

Form 2 would have completely no auto blocking, since it focuses on precise saber 'fencing'.

Form 3 focuses on pure defense, so it would be totally automated in saber blocking -- like you see in JK and JKII.

Form 4 has alittle of form 2 and 3 mixed in, so it would have limited auto blocking, but also include limited manual blocking for the times when you want to have better blocking ability.

And etc, etc, for the rest of the Forms. Obviously each would have other strengths and weaknesses, but you get my idea .

In reality though, I think its already a lost cause for me to wish for manual blocking... I think the recent interview has already stated that JA would return with the "same auto blocking" system as in JO -- and I can only hope they're misinformed. This late in the developent leaves little room for and changes to the core systems.

Ahwell, there's always JKIII .
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Old 04-07-2003, 02:41 AM   #36
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i thought of the idea of manual blocking way back when i bought JK2, when i read the manual. I mistakenly got the impression that you had to block manually by pressing attack and the direction of the attack. I was wrong, but i thought it would be a really really cool idea.
Theres nothing worse that being stuck underneath a Red stance overhead where you cant do squat to avoid it, with "Matariel's Patented Saber Combat System" as described in 2 other threads in the forum, but more clearly here: Saber Combat

You can successfully block and counter the move! Like in JK2 SP, where the blocks and counters were part of the AI, JA running "Matariel's Patented Saber Combat System" will allow for realistic saber fighting techniques. I go for realism to the movies over anything, its more fun, especially in duels, to taunt the enemy and have lots of blocks similar to the duels featured in the movies. The movies dont have ppl hitting each other every two seconds like some saber-nutters ive seen.
Some may say that this is 'boring', especially in DUEL game mode. I think its quite the opposite, it shows real skill to fight in this manner, and i'd bet anything that it would be really entertaining to watch, just like the best part of any Star Wars movie is the saber fight sequences.

Ive said this before, but if the final game doesnt have a manual blocking system, i'll code it myself, you have my personal assurance or that.

(just a note, i havent registered my saber combat system as a trademark, nor have i copyrighted it...so if the Raven guys wanna use it, by all means do it, just gimme a shout via email if you wanna talk about it)


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Old 04-07-2003, 03:14 AM   #37
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I'd say, depending on your "skill points" in saber defense. it should auto defend a bit, but by FAR not as well as manually blocking.

You should also be able to block a certain angle. IE, if they are vertical slashing at you, you should be able to hold your saber horizontal to block.

In other words, you're in a fight with maxed saber defense. You will auto-block occasionally, but if you actually hit a block key and aim your saber towards theirs (horz vs vert)...your block has a MUCH higher chance of being successful. All in all, you're survival would depend on actual saber skills, not random chances. Auto-Block would be enough to help get a "lucky block"


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Old 04-07-2003, 04:28 AM   #38
HertogJan
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Exactly, let the amount of force points you put in saber defense decide how effective your automatic block is.

On the highest level, it should block laser bolts etc. automaticly, and stop some of the saber strikes. But you'll havbe to block manually (2nd mouse button) against most saber strikes/swings. I think there's no point in manual blocking against laser bolts, especially in SP. Look at how Obi Wan reflected those lasers from the droids in EPI!!

I think that as an experienced Jedi, with lots of experience points in saber defense, you shouldn't have to worry about lasers being shot at you, you're way past that. You only have to worry about attacks from behind or saber weilding opponents...


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Old 04-07-2003, 04:45 AM   #39
Mero Vilul
 
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Manual block of course.

* Press secondary fire and you block. If you run while blocking you will be penalised, let's say it's only 50% chance of blocking while running. When walking it's 100%, if you aren't facing the opponent with your back that is. Everytime something is blocked you need to press and hold the secondary fire again. Secondary fire can only be held for about 3 seconds before you need to repress it.

* I thought about having the idea that blocking will open up the opponents defense for you, but that would be bad for gameplay. You would both be there standing until someone got tired of waiting and therefor tried a blow and the other guy blocked and countered a deadly blow. Attackers should not be penalized that badly so the defender always get the upper hand because countering is to effective. Let's say that it's a 10% chance when you block that your opponent will get a "penalty" and open himself for a easy hit. Don't you think people on servers would be standing there blocking until that situation happened and get a easy hit? Then wait again and again... The one attacking should have the upper hand...

* Holding block button and pressing backwards (when a strike is coming from the rear) means you will block the blow from behind.

* Someone not blocking when the opponent strikes a hit on hes saber will mean the player gets "JK2 stunned", with that I mean the saberclash when both players saber do a recoil animation in JK2 when clashing together. The Attackers saber will continue it's swing though, so he can still score a hit. If you just stand there waiting and not READY for a block you wont be able to withstand the force of something coming right at you, so YOU are penalised.

Edit: Using block would take away a SMALL amount of force, not more than one small dot (if parrying red stance, smaller if blue/yellow), but if you just emptied your force pool from spamming lightning, you wont be prepared or in right condition to block a fully force hitting user coming right at you for the next 1-2 seconds or so. Swinging your saber should take a little force to, these Dark/Light Jedis focuses their force and such to make all these great moves and to be able to foresee and counter the opponent. But as I said, the attack should be rewarded again so if you stand there blocking successfully for half a hour you will have less force than the attacker left. These are only SMALL amounts of force-cost. But it would mean blue spammers would need to rest once in a while and the like.

Oh well, gotta go, just some ideas I had.
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Old 04-07-2003, 04:57 AM   #40
Jolts
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For blocking blaster fire in automatic system obi wan for xbox got it down pretty well. You block anything in your fov, but to return the shot back at the attacker you had to pull back on the thumb stick which was the block command and then the shot would be returned to the enemy that fired it. It used up mana so after a few shots you had to wait for your manan to recharge.

As for duels, if you sat there a tried to let the blocking system save you the ai, or anthoer player would just kick you, or do a low attack or force powered attack and eventually beat the crap out of you. To stun someone in you had to wait for them to attack, then pull bakc on block that would cause them to recoil then you could move in for an attack.

I think both systems were good, but not the best solution, but still made for better fights than JO. If you knew what you were doing you could drop someone in 30 seconds, if you were new to the system you make a fight last 10 minutes.
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