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Old 04-18-2003, 10:29 PM   #1
Dagobahn Eagle
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Arrow On physical punishment

Note that I'm not being anti-American here. The US society is more mature in many ways than the Norwegian society. However, I feel there is one part of your community that needs addressing, the same way as I've been "educated" and improved by American society.

Quote:
In the UK disipline and upbringing has to a large degree been accosiated with physical punishment. However, such methods have been shown to often have negative consequences. What's important is to have a clear parental strategy and to create a positive learning environment.

The English Department of Health published a survey in January 2001, which shows that many parents want help in finding alternatives to physical punishment of your own children. In England it's not forbidden to spank children. However, the Health Authorities have worked to come up with alternatives.

(...)

Verbal punishmnet has to be concrete and can't be more powerful than the usual rewarding tone. Physical punishment is more questioned. Research done in the States and UK shows that most parents use this reaction method. At the same time it was shown that it works against its goal. Even if the child won't make the same mistake directly afterwards, that doesn't mean it's learned something. Research has also shown that physical punishment can increase the aggression in children and make them believe that violence is an effective way to communicate dislike. In addition the effect of other reaction methods from parents are reduced.

There is nothing more important in society than giving the children a good start. Disipline is thus important, but so is patience and friendliness.

Source: BMJ research UK / American Academy of Pediatrics
Quoted from: http://www.baby.no/helse/oppdragelse/disiplin.doc

My thoughts? I'll just add this:

1. How can you legalize hitting something that's a sixth your size, cannot hit back, and which "takes damage" from the punishment.. and say to the same child that when you hit someone your own size, that's cowardly?

2. Do you think that those other countries banned spanking just for the Hell of it? "Hey, I'm bored. Let's impose a $500 fine on spanking".

3. Don't say babies only understand physical punishment. The opposite has been proven.

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Old 04-19-2003, 07:48 PM   #2
Zygomaticus
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I'll not talk about babies. I've never heard of babies doing anything "wrong." They probably know no better. Talking about children 5-12 years old.

1. Perhaps it has done something wrong. Something it was asked not to do.

3. Perhaps they understand physical punishment better. Or maybe that's all the parents know how to do or have time to do, both of which are bad things.
I grew up in India, where it's not normal for children to call the cops when they're beaten by their parents, nor is it normal for parents to "abuse" their children. Beatings for misbehaving or lying or stealing is a commonly accepted/expected thing. I've done all 3 before, and I've had my fair share, and I've learnt from that, and I'd like to say, I learnt well. After I crossed 13, my father never found a reason to do it again, because I had learnt (most ofthe time). I don't know another way that would've worked better on me...perhaps maybe the "silent treatment" *shudder*. I don't know a better way right now..."silent treatment" I feel works only if the child truly loves his mother/father. It doesn't work if he starts out having little or no respect for them.

Overall, my point is, there's a balance...


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Old 04-20-2003, 05:31 AM   #3
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So basically, the parents are hitting their children to make them learn that hitting others is wrong. Isn't that sort of.....ironic?

Physical punishement is never for the better. Children should learn what's right and wrong in a more humane way. I mean, you never kick your dog to stop it from disobeying you, right? So why treat your children worse than your pets?
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Old 04-20-2003, 11:33 AM   #4
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There are ways of hitting too. "Hitting" doesn't necessarily mean "kicking" or "whipping".

Maybe I'm wrong, but from as much knowledge as I do happen to have, the dog isn't as smart as the human, even a child. Perhaps it doesn't know better.

And the concept is not hitting the child because they hit somebody else, it's hitting the child because they were supposed to have done something wrong. We all know treating a wrong with another wrong seldom leads to a right, but hitting, and as I previously mentioned, the "silent treatment" are probably the most effective ways of sending the message of that action's wrongness so it mightn't be done again.

For that matter, sitting by their side and having a gentle talk with them about the stuff they did wrong has been used for just as long.

Again I'll stress, there is a balance. Between showing a child the right with some force, and showing it with some love. Perhaps you try the latter the first couple of times, and if it's repeated, you might have to use the former, but I cannot agree that hitting a child does not yield long term discipline. If the child truly loves the parent, then he/she will some day understand what it was for and perhaps discard any side effectual belief that violence is an effective way of communicating dislike.


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Old 04-21-2003, 11:40 PM   #5
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Actually, I did a project on punishment in middle school, so I'll post some of what I came up with here.

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If the child truly loves the parent, then he/she will some day understand what it was for and perhaps discard any side effectual belief that violence is an effective way of communicating dislike.
If punishment is repeated, its effect will deter. When we did our presentation, we reffered to this as facing a staircase that you're afraid to climb (too steep, you might be afraid it's going to crash down on you, etc.). If you get the courage to step onto the first step of the stairs, and nothing bad happens, you'll generalize and think it's safe to do it. Then, you may

For example, if a kid gets away with stealing his dad's car once, he's more likely to do so again. The same way, if a 15-year old is yelled at several times, he's most likely to take less effect from it.

Personally, I divide punishment into four categories:

Ineffective, slight, serious, and cruel.

Ineffective is "punishment" that is not regarded as punishment to the subject. Slight punishment is punishing a child for doing something not to serious, like calling his sister ugly. Serious punishment is for doing worse stuff. Cruel punishment is for doing the same stuff as serious punishment, however, punishment falling into this category is overkill, such as "spanking" (or "malicious assault"/"mistreating of children", as stated and enforced by a $400 fine in and by Norwegian law).

When a "serious" method of punishment becomes a "slight" or even "ineffective" method, don't turn to a "cruel" method of punishment. This is a common misconception. Why is it so hard to come up with a good, new, "serious" method instead?

Quote:
Beatings for misbehaving or lying or stealing is okay
Lying? About what? Is the lie "I didn't steal my brother's chocolate bar" a reason to spank a kid? I think not. I don't think any lie, in fact, is grounds for spanking. Tell me, what's a good example? Also, theft: What's a good example?

Also, as long as spanking is legal, it can and will be abused (I've heard some terrible stories of spanking due to low grades/accidental wet pants, etc.). Don't get me started on that because I'll wind up getting hugely unpopular for saying something really rude about several cultures.

And no, sadly, I know from experience that parents often get away with even kicking a kid if it is a single experience and not repeated. If it keeps going on, though, the kid will tell someone. But then again, some parents get away with worse stuff, doesn't have to mean we should legalize it.

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Old 04-22-2003, 01:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
If punishment is repeated, its effect will deter.
The punishment need not be repeated if the reason is not repeated.

Quote:
And no, sadly, I know from experience that parents often get away with even kicking a kid if it is a single experience and not repeated. If it keeps going on, though, the kid will tell someone. But then again, some parents get away with worse stuff, doesn't have to mean we should legalize it.
*
That's why I talked about balance. True that there is hardly a way such a "balance" can be established and maintained, but that's not what I am here to do.

Quote:
Lying? About what? Is the lie "I didn't steal my brother's chocolate bar" a reason to spank a kid? I think not. I don't think any lie, in fact, is grounds for spanking. Tell me, what's a good example? Also, theft: What's a good example?
The only examples I have are examples from my own life, and I wish not to expose them here. But I'll say this:
Lying is not a bad thing when you define a lie as "I didn't steal my brother's chocolate bar". There are worse lies. Lies that ruin trust. I know parents who don't trust their children, and I know children who aren't trusted by their parents, and all thanks to the thing they call The Lie. I'm glad that my parents trust me today, but maybe I'm an extreme example. True that reacting to this with a horrendous beating won't help anything at all, but that's why I said balance.*(see above)

Stealing - let's say shoplifting, parents' room lifting (more than once), and leave it at that.

Quote:
For example, if a kid gets away with stealing his dad's car once, he's more likely to do so again. The same way, if a 15-year old is yelled at several times, he's most likely to take less effect from it.
I tend to think it the other way. When a 15-year old gets yelled at, he/she is probably old enough to think independantly and tends to grow apart from his/her parents. When a younger child gets yelled at, he (let's just use the male for now) is still very much dependant on his parents, and if he takes the responsibility to correct himself (children aren't that dumb) "stuff" doesn't need to happen again. And they can continue to be a happy family.

I'm only saying, yet again, that there's a balance. And yet again, I'll admit that it is very difficult to establish and maintain such a balance, and yet again I will tell you, that I am not here to create such a balance. I'll leave that to some greater man, or to my future self to do.
But I still cannot say I agree with complete illegalization of the thing they call "beating".

Thank you, and Good night


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Old 04-23-2003, 07:56 PM   #7
C'jais
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Spanking can indeed be an effective way to discipline a child.

So can trust and love.


I regard physical violence as weakness. It's immature, brutal and primitive. Something the cavemen did. It worked, but we're more sophisticated now. Let's not devolve here, people.


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Old 04-23-2003, 09:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by C'jais
Spanking can indeed be an effective way to discipline a child.

So can trust and love.
It's possible to fail when there are so many outside influences. I too wish it could work that way too, but I know people on whom it doesn't. Then again, I also know people on whom it does.
Anyway, sophistication of the race comes with time. Just wait till we evolve


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Old 04-24-2003, 02:26 AM   #9
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I deffinatly don't think spanking should be banned. Certain BEATINGS should deffinatly be banned. But when you're a small child and you get spanked...9 times out of 10 it's not even close to the full power that could be brought to bear against your rear. It's more like a swat than a real hit. But as a little child, any pain hurts. It gives a real deterant. But you need to make sure the child doesn't have that as his only reason for doing right. The child should know exactly what he did wrong and why it is wrong.

I was brought up with details. I wasn't spanked for just any reason. I was told and I was told good. I knew not to do so again. I've got some of the best morals of anyone I know, not the best, but very high up there. I value all the right things. I'm not an insane person because of it. I'm not very agressive and I have a good relationship with my parents.

Children who are protected and babied early in life grow up to expect that from everyone. I've got a cousin who is 14 and still expects his parents to come running every time he screams...and he screams alot...

I think the system of spanking a child can work very well if used properly. That may mean taking classes, reading books, or even getting tips from your own parents on how to apply it, but it can and will work.


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Old 04-24-2003, 02:36 AM   #10
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a moderate spanking is fine in my view. message sent, message received... and you aren't gonna cripple or bloddy someone by giving them a smack on the ass



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Old 04-24-2003, 04:49 PM   #11
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Hitting a child when they do something you do not approve learns your child that it's ok to hit someone when they are doing something you do not approve with. Is this a good thing? Certainly not. It learns children into being violent.


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Old 04-24-2003, 05:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Breton
Hitting a child when they do something you do not approve
We're not talking about hitting because of disapproval. We're not talking about parents hitting their kids for playing too many video games. We're talking about things that are just normally considered wrong - like hitting the neighbour's kid, lying (in a bad way), stealing (in a bad way)...


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Old 04-26-2003, 03:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Breton
Hitting a child when they do something you do not approve learns your child that it's ok to hit someone when they are doing something you do not approve with. Is this a good thing? Certainly not. It learns children into being violent.
Right. Of course it does. I used to get spankings. They slapped me sometimes when I did stupid stuff. I have gotten into 1 real fight in my lifetime. I learned not to hit rather than to hit. Because if I hit another child I would find out that wasn't the thing to do if you didn't want to be punished for it. I have high morals and I'm not even close to agressive.

The methods work when you use them right.


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Old 04-26-2003, 08:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
We're talking about things that are just normally considered wrong - like hitting the neighbour's kid
*Mike hits John*
Adult: It's wrong to hit people and if someone does something to you, you shouldn't solve the problem with violence, but by talking it out or by alternative ways of punishment.
*Adult goes of to contradict himself by spanking Mike instead of finding another way of punishment*

Fighting someone your size is cowardly. Attacking someone a sixth your size is disipline .

And as long as spanking is legal, hitting is legal. As long as spanking someone for drowning the neighbours' cat is legal, spanking for failing a class is legal. As long as spanking a 9-year old kid is legal, spanking a 5-months old is legal.

Right, it works. But it has been proven to have unfortunate side-effects, is overkill (don't use a cannon to kill a mosquito), and, as a nice bonus, creates a bad impression of your fatherland.

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Children who are protected and babied early in life grow up to expect that from everyone. I've got a cousin who is 14 and still expects his parents to come running every time he screams...and he screams alot...
That's an invalid argument that's got nothing to do with this topic. Banning spanking doesn't necessarily produce a spoiled child.

Quote:
I think the system of spanking a child can work very well if used properly. That may mean taking classes, reading books, or even getting tips from your own parents on how to apply it, but it can and will work.
Sure, and children hearing that their parents are taking classes teaching them how to hit children will probably teach them to be nonviolent.

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Old 04-26-2003, 09:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
That's an invalid argument that's got nothing to do with this topic. Banning spanking doesn't necessarily produce a spoiled child.
And keeping spanking doesn't necessarily produce a violent child either.


Quote:
Sure, and children hearing that their parents are taking classes teaching them how to hit children will probably teach them to be nonviolent.
Taking classes on how to take care of children. Studing child psycology. One part would be to know that sometimes physical reminders are needed and knowing when to employ them. It's not HOW to hit children...it's when. If you need to know how to hit a child then you need more help than that.


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Old 04-26-2003, 10:36 PM   #16
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Oh, you mean Family Development classes. My bad.

Let me say that I totally agree we need classes like that. And not only adults, but also teens should have to take them. It would bring divorce rates down too.

Quote:
And keeping spanking doesn't necessarily produce a violent child either.
Well, it's one of the things that does, as well as some other things. You're right, it does not necessarily make the kid violent, but it does make some kids, who maybe would not become violent, become violent.

I'll try to find some more articles on the effects of spanking and abstanance from spanking.

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