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Old 05-15-2003, 02:47 AM   #1
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You should say thank you

...to Raven Software.

Before you start complaining about how JA is this or not like that consider this:

Out of all of the Star Wars games *ever made has one ever had *any saber combat worth a damn when compared to Jedi Outcast?

Nope, not even close.

Oh wait, Jedi Knight had two different swings... hot damn.

Now consider this, it was Raven's *first shot at this type of game.

No other company could even come close (over the span of almost 2 decades mind you) to what they pulled off on their first attempt.

I for one am glad these guys are doing this game and have total faith in their ability to put out a top quality product that is both fun and playable on many skill levels.
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Old 05-15-2003, 03:25 AM   #2
Wacky_Baccy
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Very well said.

Especially after seeing the trailer, I think that Raven have truly mastered the Q3 engine, and that JK2 will be seen as a prototype for JA in the future - it was fun to play, but lacked things... JA looks like it'll be more 'rounded', and I'm definitely glad that Raven are at the helm again, because it's obvious they've learned a lot since JK2, and they actually want to make another great game

That "two decades" bit in your post confused me slightly, shock, but I'm tired so that's understandable


So, since I've not said it before, thanks Raven!

I hope they go on to develop the series even further, because I'm now almost convinced that no-one could do it better
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Old 05-15-2003, 05:45 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wacky_Baccy

That "two decades" bit in your post confused me slightly, shock, but I'm tired so that's understandable
There have been Star Wars games made for around 20 years, starting with the Arcade games, Atari and so on.

Granted not all had saber combat but those that did were pretty much "mash one button and get a chop-chop effect".

Even the recent games for the ps1/X-Box and PC had pretty simple and lame saber combat.

Jk2 didn't just do sabers a different way they set the standard that all SW games will be judged by and did what no other developer has done for sabers: they made you totally forget and ignore the other weapons because it was so fun to use/master.
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Old 05-15-2003, 05:50 AM   #4
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Quote:
Posted by shock ~ unnamed Jk2 didn't just do sabers a different way they set the standard that all SW games will be judged by and did what no other developer has done for sabers: they made you totally forget and ignore the other weapons because it was so fun to use/master.
True... Almost worryingly true
Quote:
There have been Star Wars games made for around 20 years, starting with the Arcade games, Atari and so on.
Ah, yes - I see what you meant now - I thought you were saying that there had been ones with sabre combat around for 20 years
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Old 05-15-2003, 10:27 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
There have been Star Wars games made for around 20 years, starting with the Arcade games, Atari and so on.
Okay...now you've made me feel my age. I remember playing the Arcade Star Wars game with it's outstanding vector graphics (er...lines in other words)...trying to shot those TIE fighters and then getting to the Trench run...heady days.

Anyway, I'll join the concensus, and say Thank You Raven.

I agree with everything you said, shock. Raven made a really enjoyable game in JO, with some great saber combat, and they've built on that for JA. JO is still the only game I've tried to play online, and that says a lot for it's appeal and how much fun it really is. They can't please everyone...and there will always be those who want it to be a Jedi simulator that sticks like glue to the movies rather than being a fun game.

Anyway...we'll all have our own little pet hates, no matter what the game is...but if the game is fun to play I can usually forgive any perceived flaws. I'm really looking forward to JA after watching that trailer.

*applaudes the Raven devs and salutes them for their commitment*
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Old 05-15-2003, 11:36 AM   #6
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Re: You should say thank you

Quote:
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
...to Raven Software.

Before you start complaining about how JA is this or not like that consider this:

Out of all of the Star Wars games *ever made has one ever had *any saber combat worth a damn when compared to Jedi Outcast?

Nope, not even close.

Oh wait, Jedi Knight had two different swings... hot damn.

Now consider this, it was Raven's *first shot at this type of game.

No other company could even come close (over the span of almost 2 decades mind you) to what they pulled off on their first attempt.

I for one am glad these guys are doing this game and have total faith in their ability to put out a top quality product that is both fun and playable on many skill levels.

Shock I can not agree with you more! Very well said indeed! We all should be thankful, only that will never happen. There is no pleasing some people........but I appreciate the effort that Raven has put out and continues to do so with this new game.

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Old 05-15-2003, 11:41 AM   #7
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Yeah you're right, ppl are complaining already with every bit of info they get!! Well that sure is motivating for Raven to release more info

So they have 'thank you' and I mean it I've had a lot of fun with JO and I'm sure I'll have loads of fun with JA too!!


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Old 05-15-2003, 01:00 PM   #8
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Yeah, I agree, I can't stand everyone complaining over everything all the time (ok I aint perfect, complained a bit over how the sabers looked ). Eh, actually, the reason I don't go on about the patches in JO (just an example) is 1.) I was a newbie when they came out and couldn't care less about them, nor did I notice any direct changes before I played them again, after a couple of months 2.) They're past.

I enjoyed JO alot, well, still does, and I propably enjoy JA just as much (if not more). I have played it for like a year now without getting tired of it, and I must say theres not alot of games that I find almost just as fun after a year, without putting it on a rest for awhile. So I say Thank you Raven for a great game, and for taking your time to make another great game!
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Old 05-15-2003, 01:37 PM   #9
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Great post Shock. I have been blasted several times on thse forums for supporting Raven. Personally, I think Raven made a great game in JO, and I expect bigger and better things with JA. I think the lightsaber combat is great in JO, and the SP game delivered a great Star Wars experience IMO. Hell, I'm still playing the game regularly over a full year later.

Apart from making a great game, Raven has been involved in the community, both with tips and editing help. They have tried to listen to complaints and correct bugs. They have gone above and beyond what is really required of them.

Games are never going have everything that people want, but JO does have most things. Just enjoy it for what it is, a fun Star Wars game.
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Old 05-15-2003, 01:56 PM   #10
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I'm with Shock and all those who agree with him. There just isnt any pleasing some people! But I've seen some worst flamming of Lucas Arts, RAVEN, JK2:JO and even of the movies in a lot of the different JK2 clans' forums.

What I do with games is play them because I like their concept and because they are fun to play. Of course a game will have something you dont like about it but you forget about that and focus on the fun bits or you just dont play it again.

Personally I liked DF2:JK a little better than JK2:JO because of the storyline and because you were able to choose your path in the Force. However it appears that JA will include the things I loved about both JO and JK. I like the saber combat the best in JO, but I think that is obivious.



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Old 05-15-2003, 02:24 PM   #11
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I have several:

Thank you Raven & LEC for making my favorite game ever - Jedi Knight II. As part of that, thank you for getting my the closest I've ever been to feeling one with the Star Wars universe in a game.

Thank you for making the lightsaber the most satisfying weapon I've ever wielded in a game.

Thank you for basing JKII on the Q3TA engine and showing how much could be done with that engine. If you remember, it was last winter, even after RtCW and MoHAA showed how nice looking Q3-based games could be, that the challenge of outdoor environs had yet to be tackled - one you hit big-time with the Yavin levels in JKII. (how soon we forget)

Thank you for choosing to make a pseudo-sequel. As part of that thank you for not making a true sequel yet, where you would need to justify some new reason for Kyle to be reduced to Padawan level yet again.

Thank you for listening to us in making the new game - giving us the saber and limited force powers from the beginning, allowing us character customization, dual sabers, saber-staff, and so on.

Thank you for making this game using the Q3TA engine again. It must have seemed intriguing to use the new Unreal engine, or perhaps even wait to use the DoomIII technology you're using for Quake IV. By using your existing knowledge base, we will get a robust game that shows the best the engine has to offer - and get it very quickly. The leap is like JK1 tto MotS, not Unreal to Unreal II. Personally, I would rather get JA this fall.

So ... THANK YOU Raven!!!


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Old 05-15-2003, 06:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by StormHammer
Okay...now you've made me feel my age. I remember playing the Arcade Star Wars game with it's outstanding vector graphics (er...lines in other words)...trying to shot those TIE fighters and then getting to the Trench run...heady days.
<--- old fart as well (26).

That's why I can really appreciate what they have done, I was around and played all the previous games based on the SW franchise and seen just how utterly primitive they are (even recent titles) when compared to JK2.

I mean don't get me wrong, they were fun games but JK2 was such a enormous leap in regards to saber combat that it really just puts previous attempts on saber systems to shame.

And like I said, this was their *first shot at it.

By all means people are free to discuss things they don't like with the game; there are things I can't stand.
But criticizing game play and bashing a company are two different things.

You ever written Raven?
They actually respond to you personally.
I don't know any other major software company that does that.
They put out top quality product, do an excellent job with licensed properties and actually listen and personally respond to input from their customer base. You could not ask for more from a company.

The thing everyone needs to remind people of this is a licensed property. LEC is where you need to direct a large portion of criticism because if you want changes, it's going to be their thumbs up you need for it to happen.
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Old 05-15-2003, 07:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
<--- old fart as well (26).
That's how old I was when I got married ... and my 10th anniversary was last year ... I guess my flattulance is dust

I like Raven, like LEC, love Star Wars, really loved JKII, and am 98.5% I'll love JA *even more*.

Mike


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Old 05-15-2003, 07:02 PM   #14
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Thumbs up

The two biggest things I always wanted to see in a Jedi Knight (after JK1 of course)... the return of the Dark Side option and objective-based multiplayer, are going to be in JA.

With those things satisfied, what more could I ask for?


Well, true class based multiplayer would be nice. ; )


There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism. We said "thank you" when we forked over the cash to purchase the game, and didn't return it. Or at least most of us did....

JK2 wasn't a perfect game, and in some ways it fell short of what I had come to expect after the previous games in the series, but it was still a great game, and one of the best Star Wars games out, period. I spent enough hours devoted to strategizing it...


Download JK2 maps for JA Server|BOOT CAMP!|Strategic Academy|
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Old 05-15-2003, 07:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
<--- old fart as well (26).

That's why I can really appreciate what they have done, I was around and played all the previous games based on the SW franchise and seen just how utterly primitive they are (even recent titles) when compared to JK2.
I can relate to this. I am part of your generation I remember the days of flying through a vector graphics Death Star trench.


Quote:
Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
But criticizing game play and bashing a company are two different things.
A very improtant distinction. Most times people bash the company because they are too young to know how companies (software in particular) work.
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Old 05-15-2003, 11:18 PM   #16
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There's nothing wrong with stating your opinion on a game, but people take it to the extreme, as mentioned.

People start to flame, rant, rave and even send death threats to Raven for not making it the perfect game for them. Frankly, these people are ****tards. Not only are they stupid enough to get so pissed over a game in the first place, but they give the developers who had no control over the final product crap about it.
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Old 05-16-2003, 02:25 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Emon
...but they give the developers who had no control over the final product crap about it.
Even when they do have control, they try and make a game that will be fun to play for a wide range of players. You can't please everyone. They just weight the options and pick what they think is the best solution.
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Old 05-16-2003, 09:28 AM   #18
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Thank you Raven Software.
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Old 05-16-2003, 09:39 AM   #19
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Originally posted by Mero Vilul
Thank you Raven Software.
Good boy


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Old 05-17-2003, 05:51 AM   #20
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I said thank you more times than I would have liked to. By paying a heavily inflated price for their game. I say thank you several times a week by going to their website and looking at their ads. I don't owe Raven software anything and I am insulted that it be suggested that I do. Once again I overestimated this species.
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Old 05-17-2003, 06:15 AM   #21
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If 49.99 is that big of an issue for you I strongly suggest going back and furthering your education (or focusing on it if you are still in school) so you can obtain a career that provides you financial security and thereby no longer forcing you to base your opinions on the worth of homo sapiens around a fifty dollar science fiction video game.

Or in simpler terms, stfu.
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Old 05-17-2003, 06:25 AM   #22
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$49.95 x Millions of copies sold = My point.

-Edit- Video game? My opinions of mankind are determined by the opinions of mankind, for example, your assumption that I am/should be in some way owing to the makers of a product for which I paid money.
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Old 05-17-2003, 06:43 AM   #23
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I wish there was a little smilie that had an airplane flying over a guy's head to illustrate a person totally missing the point.

The thank you part is simply a way to show that there are a lot of people who do enjoy and appreciate the work they did.

We liked the game and we simply want the people who make it to know that despite all of the bitter dribble spewing from the mouths of a bunch of whiny sci-fi geeks there is a large portion of this community who thinks that they (Raven) are doing a damn good job.

It's no different than going up to George Lucas and saying something along the lines of "Dude those Star Wars movies rock".

Lighten up guy and take the plastic saber out of your ass, if you don't like jk2, don't buy ja.

And if you didn't like jk2 gtfo of here and find something you do like.
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Old 05-17-2003, 06:48 AM   #24
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And I'M the one who missed the point. To hell with this thread.

Edit- That was very uncalled for. Watch yourself from now on.

_Groovy

Last edited by Darth Groovy; 05-20-2003 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 05-17-2003, 11:08 AM   #25
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What is it with these threads? Do they all have to turn into flaming sessions? Keep it cool people, and respect the opinions of other members even if you disagree with them.

BTW...who said they are going to sell millions of copies of this or any other game? Do you have inside information? Many game titles are lucky to sell 100,000 copies. Some manage to break the million mark, and beyond, like Half-Life (but keep in mind that although HL is still being sold, it's at a budget price).

It's been said many times...but a lot of people still don't have any understanding of the costs actually involved in producing games these days. You are usually talking in millions of dollars. Unless you have your own in-house engine, you pay the engine-provider a license fee every time you make a game on it. For Id, that's $250,000 before you can sneeze. Then if you're talking a 2 year development cycle, using a team of, for example, 20 people...they all want to get paid a decent wage for their work. Call it $30,000 a year each (very conservative estimate - I'd say that's pretty damned cheap)...there's another $600,000 a year...or $1.2 million over two years, or $1.8 million over three years. Then you've got all the overheads of running a business on top of that...office costs, government taxes, insurance, supplies and everything else. And don't forget capital depreciation on the equipment you're using. Now add in physical production costs and packaging of the media, a mass marketing campaign and distribution costs so you can let people know about your game and then physically get the game out to people. Then everyone from the developer to the publisher to the retailer adds enough to actually make a small profit out of the game...

I don't think a lot of games are over-priced...particularly when first released, because no one can really forecast how well a game will sell - unless it's something like Doom 3, where gamers will fork out cash just because of the developer and the name attached to the game, regardless of whether the game's actually any good.

Anyway...that's a bit off-topic. If someone does a good job at something, it's nice for them to hear it, IMHO. I'd hate to be in a job where I didn't get any praise or recognition at all for my work - and it's nice to hear that from the customer, not just your line-manager.
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Old 05-17-2003, 11:17 AM   #26
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Thank you Raven/Lucasarts for a great game!




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Old 05-17-2003, 03:44 PM   #27
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yes, we should b thankful shock, and its not ravens fault ppl keep using heavy stance all the time. The MP game would b so much more fun if Medium (yellow) stance was the dominant stance.


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Old 05-17-2003, 04:06 PM   #28
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Thank you Raven, for working hard on JA, and for making JO so fun and engrossing that I spent all my time playing it for a period of four months, during which time my dental hygiene and sleeping patterns both suffered...

Actually I'm not sure I should be thanking Raven at all. Thank you for helping me give myself repetitive strain injury? Pfah.


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Old 05-17-2003, 04:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
trying to shot those TIE fighters and then getting to the Trench run...heady days.
OMG that was great. I remember there being towers to fly through as well... I also remember an atari game that let you wield a light sabre to deflect bolts from one of those training 'balls' (Luke used one in the Falcon in ANH).

As for jko,

i loved it. I just played it again. I'm lookin forward to jka. If all it said was sabre combat enhancement I'd drop 50 on it. Great game...


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Old 05-17-2003, 07:01 PM   #30
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Well even if they do sell 49 million copies, why is this a bad thing?

If Star Wars would have only brought in mediocre box office results back in 77 none of use would even be here having these conversations.

This is private sector commercial product. No one forces anyone to spend money on it. If you do it's by choice. And despite what anyone may believe, people enter the commercial market to make money. Pure and simple.

I hope JA sells more copies than df/jk1/jk2 combined. That success is what will translate into more product further down the road.
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Old 05-19-2003, 02:50 AM   #31
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They should get Asia Carrera to endorse the product. Hell... any fool would buy it.
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Old 05-19-2003, 02:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarteX
The MP game would b so much more fun if Medium (yellow) stance was the dominant stance.
Why's that? What's wrong with Red stance?
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Old 05-19-2003, 03:25 PM   #33
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I enjoy the game, I personally don't care if anyone else doesn't.
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Old 05-19-2003, 04:32 PM   #34
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I enjoy the game, I personally don't care if anyone else doesn't.
I do. It'd be awful to really enjoy a game but have nobody to play it with.


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Old 05-19-2003, 06:00 PM   #35
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That is where you're wrong, I'm not THAT big of a fan of MP.
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Old 05-19-2003, 06:16 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Break_dF
They should get Asia Carrera to endorse the product. Hell... any fool would buy it.
And what exactally is Asia Carrera??
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Old 05-19-2003, 06:26 PM   #37
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The question is who not what. And, look it up.
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Old 05-19-2003, 06:43 PM   #38
Prime
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Quote:
Originally posted by -=ReApEr=-
And what exactally is Asia Carrera??
Probably not a question that should be discussed on these forums

As for her involvment in marketing the game, no doubt the sales would increase.
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Old 05-19-2003, 09:06 PM   #39
The Count
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Quote:
Originally posted by Break_dF
The question is who not what. And, look it up.
Do you intentionally act like such as A**hole, or can't you help it?
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Old 05-19-2003, 09:19 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Count_D00ku
That is where you're wrong, I'm not THAT big of a fan of MP.
He's not wrong, because he never said anything about you. He was simply stating that he enjoys MP with lots of other people.
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