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View Poll Results: Do you believe in evolution?
"Yes." 15 50.00%
"Yes, but I believe divine intervention was involved" (ie. that God set off the Big Bang, or created Earth for life to evolve on it) 9 30.00%
"No. The Bible is the word of God and thus is true." 5 16.67%
"No, I don't believe in evolution, but neither do I believe in divine creation. I think something else happened." 1 3.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Evolution vs. Creation Myths/other scientific theories
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Old 06-22-2003, 07:38 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Either way, with dating methods, there are millions of possibilities, i mean, erosion, earthquakes, and even humans (not knowing it) could effect whatever dates they think theve found.
How? I'm not saying you are completely wrong in this instance, but I'm wondering if you know how. The 'how' part is important, because these are all considerations made when dating anything. Erosion doesn't really have a huge effect, since the geologic strata is only exposed by erosion in most cases, rather than washed away. It is true that objects found in alluvial deposits, varves and beneath landslide deposits are changed in their original stratigraphic location, but this is often easy to figure out by comparisson of rock samples with the intact strata.

Earthquakes do little to change geologic strata beyond the occasional landslide (the law of original horizontality). When this happens it is very apparent. Faults are also easily identified and the original strata can be traced beyond faults. In fact, earthquakes are often helpful when dating strata by creating the fault and exposing strata.

Humans certainly affect the surroundings that they come into contact with. Had the Hurto site remained exposed longer than it did, eventually people would have disturbed the evidence. It is much like a crime scene with regard to forensics. However, they came upon this site after a recent rainy season had exposed the Hurto member in that locality. Little to no sign of human presence was detected. Both dating methods relatively concurred.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
They dont know everything... and werent around back then to really know, its a "best guess" based on what they think they know.
True, but it is a very educated best guess. I would trust his guesses before I trusted a lot of peoples' facts. Tim White's hypotheses are also supported by evidence.

But then, one can also say the same (not being around back then) about creation mythology. Note that I did not say religious beliefs in general, but rather the mythos of creation. Even the vatican recognizes evolution as the most probable explanation of life on our planet.


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Old 06-22-2003, 07:57 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
?


....thanks for the tip! it means nothing to me....
This does not surprise me, I'm sorry to say.

Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
hmmm, many people say thats God tugging on your heart. heh, the only way to find out is too try it and c.... your choice. And ive said be4, it doesnt matter if your right, and im wrong, we all die, big deal right? but if im right, well... you know. Is it worth the chance?
Worth the chance (or risk rather)? Here's where my defiance comes in, because I refuse to automatically tug tail in the face of the revelation of God's truth, I'm not gonna go "Oh, it's all true!? I'd better save my sorry self, cower down before God in fear lest he smites me and casts me out!". No! As I said, if it is true and I thus have an eternal soul that can only know different states of being and no annihilation, then my eternity will be spent, first in frustration and hatred then insanity for all eternity...Really something to look forward to, yes?


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Old 06-23-2003, 01:40 AM   #83
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Worth the chance (or risk rather)? Here's where my defiance comes in, because I refuse to automatically tug tail in the face of the revelation of God's truth, I'm not gonna go "Oh, it's all true!? I'd better save my sorry self, cower down before God in fear lest he smites me and casts me out!". No! As I said, if it is true and I thus have an eternal soul that can only know different states of being and no annihilation, then my eternity will be spent, first in frustration and hatred then insanity for all eternity...Really something to look forward to, yes?
i can understand it... i was the same way... but i changed...


Quote:
Earthquakes do little to change geologic strata beyond the occasional landslide (the law of original horizontality). When this happens it is very apparent. Faults are also easily identified and the original strata can be traced beyond faults. In fact, earthquakes are often helpful when dating strata by creating the fault and exposing strata.

sounds familar....

Quote:
But then, one can also say the same (not being around back then) about creation mythology. Note that I did not say religious beliefs in general, but rather the mythos of creation. Even the vatican recognizes evolution as the most probable explanation of life on our planet.

true... the vatican... its late at night, and i just got through some stuff sort of unpleasent, im not really thinking straight. im talking about christians, and if thats a certain denomination of christianity, cathlic im thinking... but im really tired.. they are not really "christians"

actually, i got a little pamphlet today in church about it, and im reading it now.... but from reading the 1st pages... it doesnt sound like "true born again" christianity, in fact its far from what the bible teaches, and heh, this was kind of amazing, but they worship false gods, sort of uknowingly, only the high up guys know of it... like baal, and things like that... right from birth they are sort of exposed to demonic powers... i wont gety into it..lol
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Old 06-23-2003, 04:16 AM   #84
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Going into the ritual practices of any of the religious organizations (I'm inclined to type 'cult,' since this is the literal definition, however I realize that it offends some people's sensibilities) is really getting of base of the topic "Evolution vs. Creation Myths / Other Scientific Theories."

From an anthropological view, catholism is the 'base' cult of all christianity that is considered contemporary. Even the baptist faith is a descendent. One thing that I find interesting is that most fundamentalist cults (Hare Krishna, Jehova's Witness, Amway, Heaven's Gate, Potter's House, etc.) tend to create negative stories about their competition. For instance, pamphlets printed & distributed, faith studies, class lectures, etc. This information is usually degrading and will typically demonstrate how "evil" or wrong the other cults are. The idea is to create a visual picture in the follower's head and "sell" them on the wrongness of other cults.

Very much the same thing occurs in the debates that go on about science and fundamentalist christian/islamic views (but primarily christian). Fundamentalists seem to consider science/evolution as a cult, so it very often gets treated the same way as other cults in the disinformation campaigns. In both cases, outright lies and certainly out-of-context information is used to create false information.

Next, I suggest considering the way people learn to believe. There is considerable evidence that points to cognitive development as the root of religious thought. People generally find it easy to believe. Many beliefs would vanish if people would apply commonsense principles of mental management like the following:
  • Only allow clear and precise thoughts to enter your mind.
  • Only allow consistent thoughts.
  • Consider the evidence for a claim before accepting it.
  • Only consider refutable claims.

People believe,because they fail to (or forget to, have no time to, are unwilling to, or just cannot) censure ill-formed or poorly justified thoughts.


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Old 06-23-2003, 11:58 PM   #85
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i get what you say pretty much...

in fact i was reading more about catholics, ok, really fast, cause in shool they just say christian, and when they say that, it could mean catholic, or true christian...

well, the settlers who came over werent they roman catholic? i was reading i found that they burned people, for religious beliefs stuff like that, and they committed the crimes in the name of 'god' that c'jais was talking about in earlier dscussions... so were they?

if so, then that clears christianity, they dont even worship the same god! yeah, but after doing research they dont, in fact it all comes from babylon, and even the egyptians got there 'gods' from babylon, im sure youve heard of baal, hes mentioned a lot in the bible.... ok, so this was off topic, but somewhere you guys were talking about something and christians burning people, well, it wasnt true christians, it was people who think they are christians. You see, the higher up guys know about all of this, but the ordinary people dont... they think they are worshiping God, but really they are going against the bible, just something to think about.


Quote:
People believe,because they fail to (or forget to, have no time to, are unwilling to, or just cannot) censure ill-formed or poorly justified thoughts.

it depends, im pretty much an A, B sometimes C student, i pass even though i dont believe or i disagree with what they say... i dont listen sometimes, and im amazed i pass... the reason i dont know half of this stuff, is cause ive jsut finished 9th grade abotu a week ago... (dont know if you knew) heh, one time i was talking about this, and someone found out my age... well, it was pretty funny, lol.

everything changes when you become a christian... yes i know, many religious teachers lie... but there are some that teach it right... (yes ive been studying the catholic church) and ive found, just about all of there stuff is a lie... a bad lie.. ok... so if a catholic comes along ill have to explain this. And ive been studying islam, and ive learned a thing or 2 about that, and it also turns out to be lies.... (of coarse, you believe that all religion is a lie)

if you really research this stuff, christianity "TRUE christianity" is the only religion that doesnt have any flaws... (like, being able to trace God to any other religions) or just contradictions, when you find one, its not a contradiction, cause it all works out...

yeah ok, the old and new testaments may collide, but thats cause everything changed... it was better. And new rules were set up, think of the old testament, as a book of wisdom, and a history of isreal, and the new the current 'law' or way to live, i hope that makes sence...


-lukeskywalker1
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Old 06-25-2003, 01:28 AM   #86
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you ever hear of vlad the impaler? he was a priest and a king. you may know him better as count dracula. his stories of killing people and staking them weren't just for blood lust but because he and many other priests believed those that were not pure should be killed and cast to hell. sure he eventually went against the church but that was much later after he stopped killing in name of Romania.


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Old 06-25-2003, 01:25 PM   #87
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Guys! This is an "Evolution / Creation" thread, not a nit-pick religion thread. If you can't show a correlation with evolution, leave it out...

I'd like to answer, or attempt to answer, more creationists issues with the idea of religion. Or perhaps attempt to convince some that evolution and christianity can co-exist without invoking creation mythology. The fact remains, the Pope and the Vatican have publically supported evolution (though they regard it as god's tool). The fact is, whether you choose to accept it or not, that catholism is a type of christianity. To millions of catholics it is THE sect of christianity. They worship one god, believe in the trinity, that jesus/god died for our sins, yada, yada, yada....

Many, even non-catholics, consider the Vatican to be an authority on christianity. This is important for evolutionists because it defines most of catholism as non-fundamentalist in the sense that most of the creation mythology is rejected or at least regarded with skeptism. I think that the first denomination of christianity to embrace skeptism and scientific method as "tools of god" for man, will begin to show progress and a willingness to keep up with man's evolution as a species and the evolution of intellect.

The fundamentalist religions that reject change, progress and evolution (of ideas as well as life) will slowly fall by the wayside. Even now, their survival depends upon evangelicalism and revivalism... two very misunderstood by fundamentalists and secularists alike.

Evolution...

Not: Christians are evil because.....

I'm not trying to point anyone out, but if your name starts with Insane and ends with Sith, it might apply


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Old 06-25-2003, 08:11 PM   #88
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Well said, Skin. One must not forget that Catholocism is one of the largest, if not THE largest, sect of Christianity. What the pope has said about evolution is a grand attempt of staying up-to-date. I really do applaud him for this (though his fouls with condoms is starting to make up for it).

It's really funny how much space and attention extremist Christians and their ultraconservative, flaky phantom theories get. Maybe you're not going to believe it, but where I live, the creationist theory is regarded as comical relief from diehard fanatics who don't know any better, and definately shouldn't get a say in politics. People who believe in that stuff really shouldn't expect to be taken seriously at all, and in fact, very few people know of this - except when [i]Teenage[i] magazines decides to make an article about it to ridicule it.

Then, a leading science magazine such as Scientific American publishes an article to assist in "defending" evolutionary facts, and I start to wonder.

I wonder why USA, the most technologically advanced nation and one of the founders of modern democracy, is "allowing" weird religious mythos in schools and their zealous inventors in public media and politics. Strange, bizarre - perhaps a harsh reaction to modern times?


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Old 06-26-2003, 12:42 AM   #89
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hmmm... so your saying why do they allow religion in schools c'jais? well, they dont... you can talk about it, but you cant teach it, thats illegal, ever hear of seperation of church and state...

Catholics are not christians! simple, they may appear to be, but htye dont worship God, nor follow the bible, sure they have it open durin church service, but they arent following it... in fact, they are directly disobeying it... thats why, i could care less what the pope says, cause, hes not a christian... he just appears to be a christian. They really follow Baal. All along, i thought they just did a few things different then normal christians... but they do everything different, so much different that they disobey the bible.... like 4 example, the 7 sacrements, if you can acheive those, then youll go to heaven, wrong, the bible never says, you have to acheive 7 sacrements (is acheive the right word?) it says, the only way to the Father is through the Son, so it means, follow christ, and youll get to heaven (of coarse theres more to it than that but.. you get what i mean) Look, the catholic church is a cult! they dont worship God, so if they say evolution is correct, no christian should care, cause they arent christians, they are considered christians. All the people who go there dont know this, its the part thats never talked about till you get high up. Right from birth the people aree exposed to demonic influence. They dont know it, but if they would look in the bible, they would c that everything in the church is wrong... i didnt know it was this bad till i started reading on it... i read a little pamphlet called ARE ROMAN CATHOLICS CHRISTIANS, and the answere is no.

And yes, this is still on the topic, cause im just saying, the pope doesnt matter to any christians when he says evolution was used by God or whatever, cause he doesnt worship God. Man, the some of the past popes claim to be God! Do i need to go further to prove catholism isnt christianity? ITS ALL A LIE!!! Man, they worship symbols, such as the monstrance, which was made by the egyptains, who called it Osiris... be4 popes called it Jesus

Sorry that waas long but... had to get my point accross...

Quote:
you ever hear of vlad the impaler? he was a priest and a king. you may know him better as count dracula. his stories of killing people and staking them weren't just for blood lust but because he and many other priests believed those that were not pure should be killed and cast to hell. sure he eventually went against the church but that was much later after he stopped killing in name of Romania.
interesting, but just cause there a preist doesnt mean there a christian.... in fact, catholics put people on stakes and burned them.. you see, you know the last supper... be4 christ was crucified, well, christians do something the same way, but its in remembrance of him (like the bible says) you know that thing where he says this is my body, this is my blood (and it was symbolic, it wasnt really his blood and his body) well, the catholics do some thing and then do this and that, then all of a sudden christ 'becomes' that little peice of bread, or whatever they use, and a long time ago, if anyone said it wasnt really God, then they would put them on a stake and burn them, and do other ways of tourture... just cause they said it was a symbol... you understand... another way, that catholics arent christians, and another reason why, i dont need to listen to what the pope says. He knows this is true, as do the preists

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Old 06-26-2003, 03:23 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Catholics are not christians!
I can only say that you are absolutely wrong in this case. As an anthropology student, I've made some careful study of various religions of the world and I can tell you that the assumptions that you make in that post are without meritt. Each is invalid.

I've attended catholic mass (among other gatherings of other religions) and I can tell you first hand that what is discussed is VERY much like a baptist church service or any of the other protestant sects. There are some very obvious differences, particularly in ritual, but the content is roughly the same. Latin is occasionally used, but then English wasn't the bible's original language either. The priest spoke of Jesus, god and the trinity and of being baptised and belief in christ, god and the trinity, etc.

The only real difference in protestant and catholic religion is being "saved."

You also have to understand the history of protestantism... it came about when the King of England wanted to divorce his wife. The church (a.k.a. Rome) wouldn't allow it, so the King (being of divine province) created his own religion and called it the Church of England. That began the many splits and separations that christianity experienced over several hundred years and thus we have a gizillion denominations of 'christianity.'

So you see, this is all a bunch of hogwash (or, more accurately, brainwash) that you are getting from your own cult group about another. From a secular or even atheist point of view, catholism is the more valid form of christianity.

Personally, I could give a crap. My concern is the 'dumbing' of my country, which I cover in the next post... hopefully, this ends the "my version of christianity is the right version and all others are devil worship" argument....

If posts from here on out are related to evolution -v- creation, heavy editing/deletion might be needed....

Darn... I might actually have to moderate!


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Old 06-26-2003, 03:52 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by C'jais
I wonder why USA, the most technologically advanced nation and one of the founders of modern democracy, is "allowing" weird religious mythos in schools and their zealous inventors in public media and politics. Strange, bizarre - perhaps a harsh reaction to modern times?
This is one of the reasons why I persist in debates about creation -v- evolution.

The root of the problem is actually in the successes of my nation. As a country, we have made wonderful technological advancements and progressed in ways that most nations of the world are now struggling to achieve. Part of this success was due to the opportunity that awaited those who immigrated in the 18th and 19th centuries and were able to rise above their 'station in life.'

One did not have to be born of an aristocracy in order to achieve success, one needed only to have the desire to succeed and a motivation plus an idea.... innovation was the driving force. Innovations in industry, manufacturing, consumerism, etc. were fed by new inventions and progress in transportation and communication.

The computer was the final innovation, in my opinion. We have reached a point that we are used to our 'station in life.' Kids are born with everything they need... vcrs, televisions, playstations, stereos, cars when they're 16, the newest and most expensive clothes, sneakers endorsed by Michael Jordan, and generally just the 'good life.'

Why learn the difficult subjects in school? Science won't buy that new car... in fact, the fast track is business and sports. No science is needed. No calculus (basic arithmetic is best for accounting and keeping the books and none needed for executing a play on the football field), no chemistry, no physics. Why get bad grades for nothing....

Truancy in the United States is at an all time high. Juvenile crime is skyrocketing.....

Our nation now has to import our scientists, engineers and physicians. Universities can't fill their rolls with American students, so student visas to Asian, Near Eastern, and Middle Eastern countries is on the rise.

Consequently, fundementalist religions are gaining a foothold with Americans again through revivalization movements. The idea of prayer in school has gained momentum and arguments against teaching evolution (which is one of the most contrary ideas to the tenents of fudamentalist religions which cling to creation mythology) are cropping up more and more. Just two years ago, there was a big stink over it in Kansas, a state where there is a huge population of fundamental christians.

Our country is becoming 'dumb.' In the 50's and 60's, every kid wanted to learn about science, since this is what was sending us to the Moon and that's what Kennedy promised. It was prevalent in nearly every aspect of contemporary culture of the time and it's remnants can be seen by driving across the country and looking at old signs and markers for things like the Satellite Inn (a motel), the Star Cinema (movie theater/cinema) whose marquee was shaped like a rocketship, and a multitude of other commercial establishments that survived the era.

People should be free to pursue their own belief systems, but they should also be free to question authority. Especially if that authority is cautioning against knowledge, understanding, and ideas that are contrary to their own. That applies to government or religious authority.

Certainly science has "authority," but it is important to note that it is primarily an egalitarian one. Religion and politics rarely are. This means that one is free to question the doctrines of science. In fact, one is encouraged to question, scrutinize, debate, or rebuke any aspect of science that they can prove othewise. Polititians find this difficult to accept and religious leaders consider it heresy/blasphemy.


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Old 06-26-2003, 06:34 AM   #92
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I woship this post

And I'm crying because I'm happy, at least there are people in this world who understand these things

But then I... Z-z-z-Z-z-z
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Old 06-27-2003, 12:58 AM   #93
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Quote:
There are some very obvious differences, particularly in ritual, but the content is roughly the same. Latin is occasionally used, but then English wasn't the bible's original language either. The priest spoke of Jesus, god and the trinity and of being baptised and belief in christ, god and the trinity, etc.
ill just say this, there not the same god christ or trinity... its completly different... id go into it, but its really long, i tried to make it short, and i guess i messed it up... who cares what its considered... it is what it is.

Quote:
So you see, this is all a bunch of hogwash (or, more accurately, brainwash) that you are getting from your own cult group about another.
k, so one more thing on that subject... my group, or cult as you call it, didnt tell me any of this, ive been researching it, i believed all of this b4 i started going to church... and still do.

Quote:
The computer was the final innovation, in my opinion. We have reached a point that we are used to our 'station in life.' Kids are born with everything they need... vcrs, televisions, playstations, stereos, cars when they're 16, the newest and most expensive clothes, sneakers endorsed by Michael Jordan, and generally just the 'good life.'
heh, most of that is made overseas, like japan places like that. Well, some is made by americans overseas because of cheaper prices....
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:32 AM   #94
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Native American Creation Myth

Here's a Native American creation myth from the Iroquis Nation.... I thought it interesting, since we've only presented two views: Scientific and Christian.

Quote:
Iroquois Creation Myth

Long before the world was created there was an island, floating in the sky, upon which the Sky People lived. They lived quietly and happily. No one ever died or was born or experienced sadness. However one day one of the Sky Women realized she was going to give birth to twins. She told her husband, who flew into a rage. In the center of the island there was a tree which gave light to the entire island since the sun hadn't been created yet. He tore up this tree, creating a huge hole in the middle of the island. Curiously, the woman peered into the hole. Far below she could see the waters that covered the earth. At that moment her husband pushed her. She fell through the hole, tumbling towards the waters below.

Water animals already existed on the earth, so far below the floating island two birds saw the Sky Woman fall. Just before she reached the waters they caught her on their backs and brought her to the other animals. Determined to help the woman they dove into the water to get mud from the bottom of the seas. One after another the animals tried and failed. Finally, Little Toad tried and when he reappeared his mouth was full of mud. The animals took it and spread it on the back of Big Turtle. The mud began to grow and grow and grow until it became the size of North America.

Then the woman stepped onto the land. She sprinkled dust into the air and created stars. Then she created the moon and sun.
The Sky Woman gave birth to twin sons. She named one Sapling. He grew to be kind and gentle. She named the other Flint and his heart was as cold as his name. They grew quickly and began filling the earth with their creations.

Sapling created what is good. He made animals that are useful to humans. He made rivers that went two ways and into these he put fish without bones. He made plants that people could eat easily. If he was able to do all the work himself there would be no suffering.

Flint destroyed much of Sapling's work and created all that is bad. He made the rivers flow only in one direction. He put bones in fish and thorns on berry bushes. He created winter, but Sapling gave it life so that it could move to give way to Spring. He created monsters which his brother drove beneath the Earth.

Eventually Sapling and Flint decided to fight till one conquered the other. Neither was able to win at first, but finally Flint was beaten. Because he was a god Flint could not die, so he was forced to live on Big Turtle's back. Occasionally his anger is felt in the form of a volcano.

The Iroquois people hold a great respect for all animals. This is mirrored in their creation myth by the role the animals play. Without the animals' help the Sky Woman may have sunk to the bottom of the sea and earth may not have been created.


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